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[personal profile] thalia_seawood
After disappearing for several months again, I'll try to comment more regulary in my LJ from now on. (Keyword is "try" here. :-))

In case someone missed me and wants to know what I've been up to, here's a brief summary:
Last year in September one of my collegues went on maternity leave and I took over her responsibilities in addition to my own. Due to good fortune and hard work, the project I took over became really Big. (Yup, capital letter "Big".)
On the one hand, it was (and still is) absolutely great to be involved in a project like this. On the other hand, it also meant working over-time a lot. Even if I didn't stay longer, I just felt to worn out to actually update this journal. Surfing the net reading stories is one thing, but actually taking the time to write something... that takes a lot more energy and I just hadn't much left.
Oh well, work-life looks a bit more relaxed now or I've just improved my organizational skills. So hopefully I'll have more time for this sadly neglected journal.

And now to something completely different:
I've decided to start posting my views on slash pairings for which hardly any fanfiction exists - perhaps reading my mini-essays will inspire someone to take them up after all.
Today's topic inspired by [livejournal.com profile] andromakhe 's comment in my LJ is the rare pairing Erik/Nadir.

The pairing is based on the book "Phantom" by Susan Kay and to a lesser extent on Gaston Leroux's "Phantom of the
Opera". The official pairings of these books are, of course, Raoul/Christine and Erik/Christine. So why am I routing for Erik/Nadir?

Before I go on, some background info for those who have no idea what I'm talking about (and are interested anyway).
Erik a.k.a. Phantom of the Opera has a strange bond to a Persian policeman. This man is in Gaston Leroux's version referred to as "the Persian" or by his professional title "daroga". Susan Kay based a novel on Leroux's book: Where Leroux only writes about Erik's final years and gives a brief summary of his life only in the epilogue, Kay gives us her version of Erik's entire life inspired by Leroux's epilogue. In her version, the Persian/the daroga receives the name Nadir. He also plays quite a significant part in her novel; one of the eight parts of the book is told from his point of view. Of course, Nadir also shows up in the later parts of the novel when Erik has become the Phantom of the Opera - this time we see him from Erik's point of view and later on from Raoul's POV.


Back to the question: Why Erik/Nadir opposed to the popular and obvious Erik/Christine?

When I first discovered the story of "Phantom of the Opera" in its various versions (books, musicals, films), I remember that I was all for Erik/Christine.
I think that most girls will go for that pairing: There's Christine, a young woman who's still quite childlike in many ways. There's the dangerous man of mystery with a beautiful voice who takes an interest in her - and desperately needs to be saved by her love.
Most young girls will identify with Christine - up to the point where she decides to go off with Raoul after all. At this point, they will say: "How could she! Erik needed her! We have to do something to make things right!!". And, behold, there will be fanfiction: Depending on the young girl it will either feature Christine returning to Erik after recognizing the error of her choice or Mary Sue will enter the stage (a talented American opera singer, a blind street girl, a limping ballet dancer, etc.) and Erik will understand that this woman is his true True Love.


Well, I think I've grown up since then. (When I recently watched the new movie "Phantom of the Opera" I found myself thinking that Christine was much better of with Raoul. He's so refreshingly normal. Yes, what I once called "boring", I now call "normal" and "emotionally stable"! Raoul also doesn't live in a souterrain flat.)

The problem I nowadays have with Erik/Christine is that it's not a very healthy relationship. As I've mentioned before many versions of POTO exist and each version portrays the relationship at least slightly differently:
Most versions agree, however, on the following:
- Christine is considerably younger than Erik. Not only this, she's also still behaving in a very childlike way. She's a dreamer who believes that her father sent her an angel to teach her the art of music.
- Erik takes advantage of Christine's naivete. Yes, he's in love with her and sees no other way on how to approach her than to pretend to be the Angel of Music. I remember finding that romantic when I was a girl, now I find it disturbing. (Oh yes, life has hardened me! :-))

As a result, their relationship is most of the time very imbalanced. At times, I even get the impression, that Erik uses Christine to have someone who is in awe of him while Christine uses Erik in order to stay young, helpless and impressionable. ("I can't have a will of my own when someone with such a beautiful voice talks to me, can I?")
I realize that this unhealthy dynamic shifts when Christine kissed Erik of her own free will. But even at this point, I can't see them together in a relationship of equals.

Now, my personal preference is a relationship between partners of equal strength and this is something reflected by my real life choices as well as by the (slash) pairings I support. (E.g. I'll always prefer Sparrow/Norrington to Sparrow/Will.)

In Susan Kay's "Phantom", I see Nadir as someone who can hold his own against Erik. In Kay's novel, there are only two people who can do that: one is the stone mason Giovanni, the other is Nadir.

Some examples:
- Most people are wary of getting to close to Erik or touching him. Nadir is different: He's wary all right, but he's not cowed. In one scene, Erik wants to leave without Nadir and Nadir just holds onto his sleeve.
- Nadir stands up to Erik several times: Erik steals, Nadir loudly disapproves. Erik gets involved in an assassination, Nadir visits him to confront him. And he does all of this, even though he knows Erik is dangerous.
- In Kay's version, Erik can influence people by using his voice. Nadir is the only one who can withstand this influence - he manages to resist Erik's voice on two occasions.

Kay's Nadir is my favorite character in her novel:
He's a polite and honest person who looks behind the surface of things. He has a strong will and can be quite stubborn. He definitely becomes Erik's moral compass, his conscience over the course of the novel. When he loves, he loves deeply. Behind his stern surface, he actually has a sense of humor.


Now, that's all well and good, but a pairing only works if the characters are attracted to one another.

Nadir's side:
- In the part of Kay's novel that's written from Nadir's point of view, we learn that he is attracted to women. He also never openly states that he's attracted to Erik. Thank heavens, there's subtext! :-) Here's one quote from Nadir about Erik:
"A powerful sexuality informed his every gesture. Curbed and leashed, expressed in the enormous sensuality of his hands, this sexuality gripped every audience and made him a uniquely compelling performer."
All in all, the reader gets the impression that Nadir is very aware of Erik and even might be attracted to him. Slash pairings have been based on weaker foundations in the past!
- Nadir rescues Erik's life twice. One time, he risks his own life and reputation to do so. People generally don't do this for someone they don't care for.
- Nadir sees the crimes Erik commits and still believes that he has the potential to be a good person. He retains this belief even when Erik has lost this belief in himself.
- Nadir's smart enough to keep up with Erik. He's also open-minded (even though he doesn't always admit that openly) and seems to enjoy to learn new things. In Susan Kay's novel, we're told that Erik taught Nadir French; later on, Raoul observes that Nadir's French is grammatically very good even though he has a strong accent. We're also told that Nadir likes to visit the opera regulary, because through Erik he came to appreciate classical music. In Persia, Erik builts a beautiful palace for the shah of Persia; Nadir is the only one apart from the supervisor of the building site who sees the building plans, because Erik shows them to him. I think that's not only a sign of trust, but also shows that Erik sees Nadir is someone who's interested in what he's doing and smart enough to understand it at least partially.

Erik's side:
It's a delight that Kay's novel contains a quote that suggests that Erik would not say no if Nadir would offer more than friendship.
The quote stems from the later part of the novel: Erik and Nadir have met again in Paris. Erik has already become the Opera Ghost, he hasn't yet met Christine, however. Due to his insecurity, he consults his tarot cards. He draws eath and The Lovers. (People ALWAYS do in novels and movies, so why should Kay's novel be different. :-)) Erik thinks about these cards and how they could be connected to Nadir:

"And so, even as I walked with Nadir, talked with him, rejoiced in the warmth of communicating directly once more with a human sould, there was a part of me that looked at him with wary suspicion and wondered what part fate assigned him in this new unrehearsed opera.
Not the lover, that was for certain. I'd seen enough girls leaving his apartments in Persia to be reassured that all his instincts were purely heterosexual.
Death, then...
Oh God, surely not his! I could think of no conceivable situation in which I would be prepared to do him harm--nothing in this world that would make me commit such an unthinkable horror."

It's rather telling that Erik doesn't state here: "Not the lover. I would never be interested in him this way." Instead he thinks that Nadir can never be interested in him.
Another point that intrigues me is the reason Erik gives to himself for Nadir not becoming his lover, i.e. Nadir being heterosexual. Considering Erik's deformed face, he could have made an allusion to this as well. It appears as if Erik trusts Nadir to look beyond his face. (In Kay's novel, Nadir sees Erik's face several times and only is shocked the first time.)
The reflection about the Death card in the quote additionally shows that Erik does care for Nadir deeply. Non-slashers can, of course, interpret this in an only friendship way -- but slashers should see beyond this interpretation. It's more fun!! :-)


Possible scenarios for Erik/Nadir:
- Erik nurses Nadir back to health when Nadir is suffering from an inflammation of the lungs. Later on, Nadir takes care of Erik when he's poisoned. - I think both scenes from the Kay novel could be used as a jumping board for stories, especially the second one.

- It would be possible to write a huge AU novel about Nadir leaving Persia together with Erik.
In Kay's novel, by the end of Erik's stay in Persia Nadir has no one left in Persia he really cares for plus we have seen that he has become disgusted by the rulers he is supposed to serve. So I never understood why Nadir stays in Persia at this point of the story when going away with Erik would be much less risky for him.
I'd love to see them traveling together. Erik would be able to show Nadir so many new things.
And what if Nadir were to meet Erik's mother...

- Another AU: In Kay's novel, Nadir is sent to prison for not preventing Erik's escape. What if Erik learned about this and tried to rescue his friend.

- And another AU: What if Erik didn't die when Christine went away, but instead Nadir could convince him to start living again. I could see these two going to live in a house on the countryside. The slash could follow when they are already living together. :-)

- Or: What if Erik and Nadir met one another during the building stage of the opera? I can easily see Nadir as a mediator between Erik and his workcrew. I also don't think Erik would go underground with Nadir present.


Conclusion:
I hope more people will write Erik/Nadir in the future. There are really a lot of scenarios one could explore.
I've been looking for fanfiction for this pairing for about 10 years now. About twice a year, I'll google for it. After years of finding nothing, I recently discovered an ongoing discussion about slash for POTO that mentioned Erik/Nadir.
I've also discovered one incomplete story.


The big problems for the success of the pairing are:
- POTO mostly appeals to a younger audience who will mostly enjoy Erik/Christine.
- The possibility of Erik/Nadir will rarely get noted as the Persian/daroga/Nadir doesn't appear in most versions of POTO. In Leroux's novel, he isn't all that outstanding. In the musical by Maurice Yeston the Persian's relationship to Erik is not very friendly -- and anyway, who knows this musical? Everyone knows Webber's (superior) version.
- So this leaves Susan Kay's novel. And her novel has apparently been out of print for several years. I've seen that it's possible to get it secondhand -- if one is willing to pay 75 $ for it.

Well, hope is the last thing to die. Which means I'll continue to google for Erik/Nadir on a half-yearly basis. :-)
(deleted comment)

Re: Very long ramblings

Date: 2005-02-14 01:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com

Nadir:

You wrote: "I am personally in love with Nadir".
You have excellent taste! :-)

I also agree with you that Nadir is smart; while he's fundamentally honest, he still has the ability to be cunning.

I think Susan Kay really stayed faithful to the main characteristics Leroux gave the Persian, because in her novel he's definitely portrayed as intelligent and occasionally cunning.


Slash and friendship fics:
So far I haven't written any slash-fanfiction either. I hope someone else will pick up the pairing. My contribution to the good cause is this little essay. :-)

Fanfiction:
Here's a link to the incomplete slash story I mentioned:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/28257/
It's the story "Two of Us". The Persian is named Asad Bayoumi in this story, so it's quite amazing I still found it via google.


And here some links to stories that feature Nadir:

http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Stage/2394/mort.htm
"Erik est mort" by Jeanette Birt
Not a slash story officially, but still very slashy in parts. Not that I think the author even knew the meaning of "slash", but the subtext in this story is hard to overlook.
Oh, and the Persian's name is Suram Mehmet al Kamil in this story. :-)


http://www.geocities.com/HeatherJCS/study.html
Heather Sullivan's POTO fanfiction page. I read her stories over 5 years ago. At the time, I thought that her stories where way above the average of POTO fanfiction - otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to bookmark her website.
Just looked quickly over her story summaries: "À Ceux Qui Attendent" and "Acts of Contrition" feature Nadir/Erik friendship.


http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1567795/1/
"The Apologist" by Shards of Narsil


http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1277473/1/
"Renewal of An Old Acquaintance" by Riene


Raoul:
You wrote: "I'm afraid I must disagree with you on the point of the Viscount. He *is* boring, not to mention rude and presumptuous. He's normal, yes, but he could also be said to have been stalking Christine. He just wasn't murdering anyone while doing it, which doesn't make it any less right."

Some versions of Raoul do have the stalkerish expect, but Raoul in the latest movie version did not strike me as stalkerish at all. He recognizes Christine again and wants to see her; even after all these years he still remembers her. Christine would have been happy to see him if she wasn't scared of her "Angel of Music's" disapproval. It's not
Raoul who's stalkerish here, it's Erik!

The only scene where he could be seen as rude is the one where he tells the managers off because he wants to be alone with Christine. That reaction is quite understandable, IMO, or would you want to listen to them for more than five minutes? :-)

As for Raoul being boring: Well, I don't think he's very interesting in most POTO versions. Fictional characters usually start fascinating me when they have issues (character flaws and strenghts strongly intertwined, perhaps hints of a difficult past). In most versions, Raoul either isn't given enough character exploration to have a chance to be interesting. Susan Kay's version is the exception: Here an entire chapter is written from his POV so he gains a lot of depth.

Re: Very long ramblings

Date: 2005-04-21 06:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stephantom.livejournal.com
Yeah, those are all the remotely Nadir/Erik stories I know of, and hey that's me! Narsil! :)

Re: Very long ramblings

Date: 2005-02-14 01:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
Christine using Erik:
You wrote: "I can see Erik's using Christine, but I don't think it's in Christine's character to use him just so she doesn't have to make decisions. It's more that she *can't* make her own decisions. She just never developed a will of her own."

Maybe the word "use" is too active. I didn't mean that Christine plots every day on how to use Erik. But she does subconsciously use him -- as long as she's around him she can avoid making decisions.

Personally, I find that musical version Christine is a lot more decisive than she is in other versions. I don't thinks it's quite in character that she assists the plot to capture Erik, but then it can be argued that she just goes along with everything without asserting her own will.


Getting "Phantom" by Kay:
Check out www.bookfinder.com. Enter Susan Kay & Phantom as search criteria. There are 9 books for less than $ 25 available! The cheapest one is $ 17,66 (Alibris, United States).
If you really want to get it, I think this offer is very reasonable. (On amazon.com, prices for this book are between $ 80 and $ 150!)

Erik/Christine or Raoul/Christine:
You're right. What pairing someone likes is first of all based on people's personalities.
My judgment that Erik/Christine is the most popular pairing was based on skimming the POTO section on fanfiction.net: A large percentage of the fics here is Erik/Christine. But then Raoul/Christine shippers would have less incentive to write fanfiction as their favorite pairing gets together anyway.


Norrington:
Norrington is Commodore Norrington in the movie "Pirates of the Carribean". In the beginning of the PotC fandom, the pirate captain Jack Sparrow was mostly paired with Will whereas Norrington/Sparrow was a rarity. Nowadays, some brilliant Norrington/Sparrow fiction is available which is wonderful. Those two have such great chemistry!

Date: 2005-02-15 07:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thunderemerald.livejournal.com
Erik/Nadir. My new favourite non-canon pairing in ANY fandom... and here, you've gone and detailed all the reasons why it ought to happen! I too am madly in love with Nadir -- his section of the book is likely my favourite, and though his narration never focuses too much on himself, I just love what I can tell of him from how he speaks of Erik.

And of course, what I can tell of him from the fact that he speaks so MUCH of Erik.

Er... hello, by the way. My name is Lindsay, and I am a hardcore Kay fanatic. I actually found the link to your journal via a Google search for "erik/nadir" -- hee!

I fully admit to being one of those Erik/Christine shippers, but in recent years I've developed some of the same misgivings as you have. Their relationship is, well, CREEPY. There's a REASON it could never work. Part of me will always wish that Christine stayed and saved him, but most of me knows that it was impossible.

And in the last part of this very disjointed comment, I shall say DAMN YOU! For you've inspired a plot bunny. Erik sent Christine away with Raoul... yes? And he then invited Nadir inside for tea... yes? What if it turned into more than tea? Oh-ho-ho!

My inner slasher is going "SQUEE!" at this. The part of me that tries to be "normal", however, is going "Oh good lord...." :)
(deleted comment)

Re: Hello...

Date: 2005-02-15 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
Oh, I totally agree with you about Raoul in Leroux's novel. He's very arrogant there. I had the feeling that he's so conceited, that he just can't comprehend Christine might find another man interesting.

Christine & Raoul: No, that's not necessarily a healthy relationship either. I can see latest movie Raoul being a good partner for Christine; he's not so over-bearing.
But overall there are similar problems as in the Erik/Christine relationship. Christine needs a protector to remain weak forever. Either Erik or Raoul can provide the protector for her. In some scenarios I can even picture *Erik* as the better partner for her. He might actually force her to grow up in the long run whereas Raoul would be quite happy to have Docile!Christine by his side forever.

And no, I'm not a big fan of Christine either. If she was a real person, she'd drive me up the wall in no time. I'd constantly tell her to make up her mind about things.

Re: Hello...

Date: 2005-02-15 09:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thunderemerald.livejournal.com
I definitely agree with both of your assessments of the R/C and E/C relationship in Leroux... but in Kay, I actually LIKE Raoul. Yes, he had his arrogant side... but was he NEARLY as arrogant as Erik? Not by a long shot. Yes, he stalked Christine a little... but did he hide behind Christine's mirror and watch her through one-way glass while pretending to be a mythical figure? No.

But I think his actions at the end completely redeem him. I mean, when Erik sent them away, Raoul got stuck with a wife who was clearly in love with someone else, and a son who... well, I won't spoil for those who haven't read the book. But the point is, Raoul dealt with it. He didn't wallow in self-pity; he just took care of Christine. To me, that implies a good heart. Oh, yes, I liked Kay's Raoul.

Raoul

Date: 2005-02-16 09:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
I exclude Susan Kay's Raoul from my harsh judgment. He's actually the version of Raoul who deserves the most sympathy. I have to admit that what Kay has in store for me is not exactly to my liking. Since I don't want to spoil the novel for anyone, I'll not discuss this in detail here.

I dislike Leroux's Raoul, but even worse is Raoul in the movie with Charles Dance as Phantom. He's vein, irresponsible and you just know that he'll have affairs with the ballett girls all his life.

Re: Raoul

Date: 2005-02-17 05:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thunderemerald.livejournal.com
OHHHH yes, mini-series Raoul (and Yeston Raoul, who's exactly the same, and whose name is really Philippe) is a bit of a bastard. And since Dance's Erik was so damn TAME... well, no WONDER Christine only went off with him once Erik was dead! It'd certainly be interesting to read a fic that examines THEIR relationship... yeesh.

(As for Kay's ending... I'm indecisive about it. Part of me wants to go "YAY!" and the other part thinks it's just too much happy for a book like that. I mean really.)

Squeeeee

Date: 2005-02-15 08:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
Sorry, I'm usually not a squeeing fangirl, but reading your comment made me VERY happy. So cool to find that other people google for Erik/Nadir as well!

About the plot bunny: Go for it!! The scene where Erik invites Nadir for tea is absolutely perfect!

Other plot bunnies I had:
- There's one thing that's really illogical in Kay's book: Why does Nadir stay in Persia when he helps Erik escape? Because there's nothing left for him there apart from his estate as his wife and son are both dead. And the estate: Well, he must know that he will lose it for his failure of imprisoning Erik. So why does he not come with Erik when he escapes?? -- The reason is, of course, that this would fundamentally alter the plot of Phantom of the Opera. It's very likely that Erik would never have been desperate enough to become the Phantom if he had Nadir by his side. So this is definitely a rather complex AU. But hey, don't you want to see how they escape together and travel all of Europe and Asia? And become closer and closer? :-)

- After the death of Nadir's son, Erik and Nadir's relationship becomes strained. I'd love to see a story where they talk about what happened. I don't necessarily see sex in a scenario like this, but some tenderness or even a kiss would be very nice.

If I reread the novel, I definitely come up with more. :-)

Thanks for your comments, Lindsay! I hope to read more from you!

Re: Squeeeee

Date: 2005-02-15 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thunderemerald.livejournal.com
I've often wondered why Nadir stayed in Persia, too. In fact, I was exchanging emails about this with a friend of mine recently, and she actually very well might write an AU based on this scenario! She talked about Erik and Nadir leaving Persia together, and perhaps fleeing to India. Of course it would end up being slashy....

But personally, I usually tend to stick to one-shot stories. Little missing-moments and mini-AU's and things like that. (I already have three such stories based on Kay, and one based on Leroux.) Which is why the tea thing might be something I could actually write. Or the conversation after Reza's death -- that's an interesting idea too!

This is definitely a pairing that the fandom needs more of. Damn it, I'm going to have to write it now... :)

Re: Squeeeee

Date: 2005-02-16 09:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
I really hope your friend writes the AU! I'd also be happy to help her with beta-reading or plot discussion.

Is it possible to read your stories online? I'd love to check them out!
It would be lovely if you wrote some one-shot stories about E/N. Please let me know if you do!

Re: Squeeeee

Date: 2005-02-17 05:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thunderemerald.livejournal.com
I'll definitely let her know she has another beta on-hand if she needs one! As far as I know, she hasn't started it yet -- but here's hoping. And here's hoping that I get some damn INSPIRATION to write E/N fic(s) of my own. I'm so terribly afraid of getting their characters wrong....

And I see you've already found some of my online stories! Thanks so much for your in-depth reviews; I'm so glad you liked them.

Re: Squeeeee

Date: 2005-02-18 10:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
After reading three of your POTO stories (The Mirror, The Siren, The Odalisque) each with spot-on characterization I'm very sure you could do both Erik and Nadir justice! I'd also be happy to discuss characterization issues with you. :o)

On my way home, another plot bunny attacked: Do you remember the scene where Nadir confronts Erik about Christine("This is no way for a gentleman to win a lady.")? Erik starts to cry at the end of the scene, only we don't get to know how Nadir reacts to this. Instead the scene just fades to black. Now what exactly happened?! Depending on Nadir's reaction, all the upcoming events could change; Erik would very likely let Christine go forever if a bit more was to happen between Nadir and him.

Honestly, the more I think about this pairing the more I love it.
Compared to his usual behaviour, Erik is very open and vulnerable around Nadir. If I remember correctly, he cries at least three times around Nadir.
And Nadir's such a good match for Erik: He's down to earth, strong-willed, but also very empathic. He's intelligent and enjoys learning new things: He learns French from Erik, he starts to appreciate classical music, he's even tempted to learn the craft of picking pockets. :-)
On the whole, it's lovely to see how Erik and Nadir influence one another in a positive way.

Re: Squeeeee

Date: 2005-02-19 06:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thunderemerald.livejournal.com
DAMMIT! Like I need MORE plot bunnies! :-P But oh wow, I like the new one. Do you write fic as well? Because I'd like to see you try your hand at this too! ;)

I agree; they certainly are a good match. I don't know if you're a fan of Remus/Sirius as a pairing, but the dynamics of the relationship seem a bit similar in Erik/Nadir. One of them is dark and brooding, not to mention impetuous and strong willed... while the other has more of a quiet strength. And while Sirius is quite good-looking while Erik is (er) not, they both have pasts that could easily come back to haunt them.

:: he's even tempted to learn the craft of picking pockets. :-)

That's another interesting fic idea... what if Nadir had taken him up on that offer? That would have put an interesting spin on their relationship too, I think. A minor change, but one that could be a ripple in the water, as it were. And ripples, as we know, can turn into waves.

Dammit, I have too many things to write! I'd better get cracking...

Re: Squeeeee

Date: 2005-02-22 07:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
No, I don't write fic. I'm good when it comes to analyzing characters, but the art of actually writing stories about them still eludes me. :-)

Remus/Sirius was the first HP pairing I read. I have to admit that I lost interest in them when Lupin/Snape and Harry/Draco came into existence. (Back in the year 2000, Harry/Draco was still *very* rare and the few stories floating around were most of the time of high quality.)

You wrote: "One of them is dark and brooding, not to mention impetuous and strong willed... while the other has more of a quiet strength."
You know, if Sirius had been portrayed like this in fanfiction I probably wouldn't have lost interest. But most Sirius/Remus stories I saw were incredibly fluffy; Sirius calling Remus "Remy" makes me shudder - and not in a good way. :-)
I think I should probably check out your Sirius/Remus stories. If there are any other Sirius/Remus stories you can recommend, please let me know. I'm always looking for well-written fiction.

Nadir learning how to pick pockets:
Yes, you're right. It's a small change, but one that could have a lot of significance. (The funny thing in the book is that Nadir doesn't decline Erik's offer to teach him because of moral considerations, but because he's scared of getting caught.)

Re: Squeeeee

Date: 2005-02-22 08:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thunderemerald.livejournal.com
Ahhhh, the Remy-fics. I now understand completely why you lost interest. Nothing turns me off more than a fic where they call each other Remy and Siri. Ugh ugh ugh. I must admit I'm really not a fan of Harry/Draco or Remus/Severus (although I've read a few stories in which I liked the latter pairing, but VERY few). The only pairings I actively like (besides the established canon ones) are Remus/Sirius and Remus/Tonks. Meh. To each their own. :)

Actually, while most of my stories involve Remus and Sirius, they're not usually slash. Only three of them are slash, and two of those ("A Drink and a Dare" and "Awake") are quite fluffy. (With regards to R/S, I'm fully in support of unadulterated fluff, so long as it takes place BEFORE Sirius was in Azkaban. Afterwards, he's bound to be a tad unstable.) The other, "Liar," is kind of angsty.

But if you want ANGSTangst, read "Wolfsbane" and/or "Echoes." They're intended as friendship-fics, but it's definitely possible to read slash into the subtext if you so desire.

All the fics I've mentioned are linked from my profile. And as always, I am a sucker for reviews. ;) But I also have to point out my personal favourite R/S slash piece: "Inhabited By Winter" by Yahtzee. This was actually the first fic that made me believe that R/S could happen, just because of how realistically she wrote it.

Back to Nadir! Yes, I LOVE the observation that he's just scared of getting caught. I really, really wonder what would happen if Nadir stopped being Erik's protector/conscience/voice-of-reason/whatever for a while, and just had some damn FUN? ;)

Date: 2005-02-15 09:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
Oh, and I love your LJ icon. That's the best cover of the Phantom book I've seen. (It's the book version I gave my best friend for her 15th birthday. I wish I'd bought a copy of this version for myself, too. :-))

Date: 2005-02-15 09:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thunderemerald.livejournal.com
Mmm, I wish I had that cover on my copy of Kay! But alas, I just have the black one. :(

How's'about THIS icon, hm? Scary-ass Erik! :)

Date: 2005-02-16 09:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
"Scary Erik" is good, but nothing beats "Sad looking Erik with elegant posture, beautiful hands and tasteful clothing".

Date: 2005-02-17 05:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thunderemerald.livejournal.com
Beautiful hands. Guh. There is NOTHING more attractive on a man than beautiful hands.

And I think I can blame Erik for that notion.
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Re: Wheee!

Date: 2005-04-03 12:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
Cool! I'm so glad you liked the book and discovered Erik/Nadir subtext as well!
Checked "Erik/Nadir" in the LJ interests today and some people have added it to their interest since February.

You can reach me via AIM - I go by the fancy pseudonym QueenOrkan. :-)
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(deleted comment)
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Re: Yay! Another voice of dissent.

Date: 2005-04-06 10:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
I think he's 19 or 20 actually. Haven't got the book near me right now and am too lazy to go downstairs and check. :-) Nadir seems to be a bit older, maybe 22-25.

Date: 2005-04-06 09:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
How to nice to see someone new join the discussion! I've friended you back - my journal can be rather quiet though at times. :-)

The ending of "Phantom" never fails to annoy me. I've never been a big Christine-fan, but in Susan Kay version I feel like slapping her. What I don't understand is: Does Kay think her Christine is likable? Because if she wanted her to be sympathetic she failed.

But the parts between Erik and Nadir are just amazing! Even if you don't interpret the relationship as slashy it's such a powerful and touching friendship.
Sadly though noone has really written Erik/Nadir so far. I found a drabble though on the group phantom_slash.

Date: 2005-04-06 10:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
And the drabble is on phantomslash:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/phantomslash/1545.html

Date: 2005-04-21 06:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stephantom.livejournal.com
I completley agree with all your arguments and I am so happy that you feel this way too! Yay for Erik and the Persian!

E/C is sort of a guilty pleasure for me, but I can never completley enjoy it because I know that it's just not right. Christine and Raoul really do fit together better, and... call me sadistic, but it's the moment when Christine leaves him that I love Erik most.

Bottom line... There should be more Erik/Nadir fics.

Date: 2005-04-22 06:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
It's funny with this thread. My LJ is such a quiet place, but every month or so someone new shows up to comment on my Erik/Nadir post. :-) It's wonderful to find more people who share my love for this pairing.

So great to find Narsil on this thread!! I enjoyed your stories a lot and only 1 month ago recommended them to a RL friend. (I sincerely hope I left a comment for your stories at least once...)

Do you think you might write some Erik/Nadir slash yourself? If you ever do, please drop me a line!

Date: 2006-05-21 08:12 pm (UTC)
my_daroga: Mucha's "Dance" (slash)
From: [personal profile] my_daroga
Wonderful arguments. I hope to do them justice in the future, though of late I've moved away from Kay and towards Leroux. There is still plenty of room for slashy goodness there, however. Have you read [livejournal.com profile] ghostwritten2's story A Mirror in the Palm of Your Hand? Because if you haven't, it's a must. I think it's gaining momentum!

Date: 2006-05-24 09:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thalia-seawood.livejournal.com
Yes, I recently read this story. It's really outstanding, definitely a work of art. (Still need to comment on it!)
The relationship between Erik/Nadir in the Kay novel is more stable, IMO. I.e. in Kay I can see a happy successful relationship between them, in Leroux I can only see a tragic relationship.
[profile] ghostwritten2 has made an excellent point in her story: Erik is totally set on gaining the love of a woman. The daroga on the other hand is both repulsed by Erik and drawn to him.

I'm not too keen on Kay myself, so I can understand you decided to focus on Leroux. I heart the Erik/Nadir scenes in Kay's novel, but am not keen on the Christine characterisation and strongly dislike how things turn out for Raoul.

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