Buffy - Season 6 impressions (episode 9)

[thalia_seawood]

Smashed

For a summary click here.


I've noticed that during this episode nearly every character abuses power in some way.

- In the first scene, Buffy protects a couple from a mugger. However, she comes across nearly as frightening as the mugger. She also gets a kick out of hurting the mugger, she abuses her superior strength to release her own frustration. While she has done something similar in the past (e.g. in the aftermath of learning Riley has visited the vampire nest), she has never turned her powers against another human.

- Willow and Amy abuse their power in the extreme when they go clubbing and use magic for fun. They definitely don't take into account that something might go wrong - or if they are aware of this possibility just don't care.

- As soon as Spike believes his chip is no longer working, he attacks a young woman.

- Warren, Jonathan and Andrew steal a jewel from a museum and deep freeze the museum guard without thinking about the consequences. Andrew worries about the guard afterwards, but is very easily appeased by Warren - who actually knows their weapon isn't that harmless, but doesn't care.

ANDREW: Is he gonna like-
WARREN: Oh, he'll be fine. Yeah, he'll defrost in a couple of days, no harm, no foul.

Other observations

- We see that Buffy and Spike still have an on/off relationship. Right now, Buffy is determined to never kiss Spike again. Spike doesn't agree with her decision, of course.

- Willow talking to Amy (in rat form):
Oh, we need to get you a nice companion rat (takes Amy out of the cage) that you can love ... play with ... and grow attached to, until one day they leave you for no good reason.

Willow states here that Tara left her "for no good reason". This suggests to me that she is unwilling or unable to accept that what she did to Tara was wrong. She pretends that meddling with Tara's memory was no big thing.

Until she understands what she has done and honestly resolves to never do something like this again, Willow will be a risk to everyone around her.

- Willow transforms Amy who was trapped in rat form back to her human self.
This scene also shows that Willow hasn't changed at all after Tara left. She still uses magic - and she still uses it without thinking about the consequences first. She transforms Amy back, because she realizes she can do it, but doesn't consider if a sudden transformation might be harmful for Amy.

- Andrew reenacting the famous scene from Mission Impossible made me smile.

- Buffy tries to talk to Willow about what's going on between her and Spike, but gets interrupted by Amy's arrival that features some great dialogue:

AMY: Hi Buffy.
BUFFY: Hi. (awkwardly) How've you been?
AMY: Rat. You?
BUFFY: Dead.
AMY: Oh.

When the interruption is over, Buffy realizes that she doesn't really know Willow any more and decides against talking to her:

BUFFY: Wow.
WILLOW: I, I just realized I could. Thought of the right thing, and ... it's nice, having another magically-inclined friend around.
Buffy looks down, pensive.
WILLOW: So, w-what were you gonna tell me? You were sounding all serious.
BUFFY: Huh? Oh. Uh, it's nothing. I mean, the whole Amy, rat, Amy thing ... no way I'm toppin' that.

Despite that, this episode is also the beginning of Buffy identifying with Willow.

- Spike and Buffy enter the abusive cycle:

Since Spike still talks to her about the two occasions when they kissed, Buffy first insults him and then punches him.

SPIKE: A man can change.
BUFFY: You're not a man. You're a thing.
[,,,]
BUFFY: You're a thing. An evil, disgusting, thing.

This time around Spike hits back and learns that he can attack Buffy without being in pain which makes him think that his chip stopped working.

Regarding Buffy's insults: I have the impression that she uses as insults something she's afraid of herself. I'm pretty sure that at this point she already wonders if something is wrong with her and that she sees herself as an "evil, disgusting thing". Actually, what's happening to Buffy reminds me a lot of what happened to Faith.

- After believing his chip is broken, Spike attacks a woman. It's a totally fascinating scene, IMO. His motivation here is not hunger, it's all about proving that he is still evil. In a way, he tries to restate his identity as a vampire. I'm not convinced he would try to attack anyone if Buffy had accepted him in the previous scene; however, she has negated that he is a man and that he can change, so he pretends that he doesn't care about Buffy's judgement and truly delights in being evil.

SPIKE: Just 'cause she's confused about where she fits in, I'm supposed to be too? 'Cause I'm not. (pacing back and forth) I know what I am. I'm dangerous. I'm evil.
WOMAN: (scared) I-I'm sure you're not evil.
SPIKE: Yes, I am. I am a killer. (moves closer to her) That's what I do. I kill. And, yeah, maybe it's been a long time, but ... it's not like you forget how.
He gets up very close to the woman, who is panting fearfully.
SPIKE: You just ... do it. (nervously) And now I can, again, all right? So here goes.

- Tara reassures Dawn that her moving out hasn't changed that she cares for Dawn. Dawn hopes Tara will get back together with Willow as soon as possible and even lies to make Willow look better.

- Buffy, Xander and Anya are wary around Willow. When Anya brings Willow'S problem into the open, Willow says:

WILLOW: Guys ... it's okay. It's hard ... but i-it's better this way. Little things just ... starting taking over, things that didn't matter, but we saw them differently, so ... they got blown out of proportion. (Shot of Buffy and Xander listening) And, this time away will help us sort through things.

Yes, Willow is definitely pretending nothing serious is wrong. It also seems as if she didn't apologize to any of her friends for causing their temporary memory loss.

- Love the scene where Spike visits the geek trio and bosses them around by taking the action figure of Boba Fett hostage. :-)

ANDREW: You're English, right?
SPIKE: (frowns at him suspiciously) Yeah.
ANDREW: I've seen every episode of Doctor Who. (Spike continues frowning) Not Red Dwarf, though, 'cause, um...
JONATHAN: 'Cause it's not out yet on DVD.
ANDREW: Right. It's not out on ... (weakly) DVD.
Spike scowls at them.
SPIKE: (yells) Warren!!

One reason I'm so amused by this scene is that it made me notice that Andrew has a lot in common with Spike's human self. Like William he's the artistic, sensitive type (playing the flute, lovingly spray painting the Death Star) who talks too much and stumbles over what he wants to say. Socially, he's a nobody. And as I saw a couple of epsisodes later he also has a dark side to his personality.

- Love this moment for James Marster's acting:

SPIKE: (to himself) Nothing wrong with me. Something wrong with her.

- Nice to have another lighthearted moment:
XANDER: Aha! I got it! Uh, here's our villain right here!
Anya and Buffy look, then both shake their heads. Buffy returns to her book.
XANDER: What?
ANYA: That's a D&D manual, sweetie.

- This is a scene I find very intriguing as her Buffy starts strongly identifying with Willow. She compares Willow's unhealthy attraction to magic to her own seemingly unhealthy connection to Spike. As long as there's hope for Willow there's also hope for herself.

Anya's take on responsible people being in danger of going "bam" eventually is something that certainly applies to Willow and Buffy. In this episode, they both go "bam". Willow by overusing magic, Buffy by having out of control sex with Spike.

(It seems as if "Mother is expecting me."-William was also the responsible type before his death and he definitely went for maximum destruction after being turned into a vampire.)

XANDER: Tara thinks Willow is doing too much magic. And she's not the only one.
BUFFY: I know. But I-I think she'll be fine. You know, it's, it's Willow. She of the level head.
ANYA: Well, those are the ones you have to watch out for the most. Responsible types.
BUFFY: Right, she might go crazy and start alphabetizing everything.
ANYA: I'm serious. Responsible people are ... always so concerned with ... being good all the time, that when they finally get a taste of being bad ... they can't get enough. It's like all (gestures) kablooey.
BUFFY: That's not true.
ANYA: Okay, not kablooey, more like bam.
XANDER: It's human nature, Buff. Will's getting a taste of something powerful, way bigger than her.
ANYA: Yeah, she was getting out of control with it before Tara left, and now that she's gone...
XANDER: It's gotta be seductive.
Buffy looks up in alarm at the word 'seductive.' Her eyes widen.
XANDER: (OS) Just giving in to it. Going totally wild.
Buffy stares at him.
XANDER: We need to keep an eye on her.
BUFFY: Okay. Okay, we'll, we'll keep an eye. But we can't assume that everybody's getting seduced, you know, sometimes-

- I like Xander's nickname for Spike: "Captain Peroxyde" is quite fitting.

- Spike gets his revenge for Buffy calling him an evil, disgusting thing by bringing up her own worst fears.

SPIKE: Guess what I just found out. Looks like I'm not as toothless as you thought, sweetheart.
BUFFY: (alarmed) How?
SPIKE: Don't you get it? Don't you see? (sneering) You came back wrong.
Buffy stares in disbelief. Blackout.

Things escalate from then on: Buffy is so upset that she resorts to violence and Spike finally has the chance to fully retaliate. They also try to hurt one another verbally. Regarding their insults, they both dish out what they are afraid of themselves. So their verbal attacks really tell us a lot about them: Spike is afraid of not fitting anywhere and being unloved. Buffy's fears are very similar; she isn't really convinced that she's still fully human.

SPIKE: (grinning) Oh, poor little lost girl.
He jumps up, grabs the chandelier. Swings forward on it and kicks Buffy in the face with both his feet. She goes down.
SPIKE: (drops to the floor) She doesn't fit in anywhere. She's got no one to love.
He walks over to Buffy, who gets up, grabs him, throws him against the staircase leading upstairs, smashing the banister to bits. Buffy walks toward him.
BUFFY: Me? I'm lost? Look at you, you idiot! (Spike getting up) Poor Spikey. Can't be a human, can't be a vampire. Where the hell do you fit in?

Watching this scene made me link Buffy/Spike to Darla/Angel. Both couples don't have conventional relationships, they feel both love and hate for one another. Almost against their will they share a strong connection with their partner, they share similar fears and desires.

When Buffy and Spike finally have sex together, the already decrepit house comes down around them and they crash into the basement together.
I love how this scene ties in with the impressions I had for Flooded where I saw Buffy and Spike in connection to the state of the Summers'residence. The old house they cause to tumble down around them, the imagery of falling down together (which takes up their shared fall into the grave in Once More With Feeling) is very symbolic. At the moment, their relationship is destructive. Since houses can be rebuild, I'm nevertheless optimistic that their relationship can change at a later point.


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Comments

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

I have vivid memories of the first time I saw this episode. I was unspoiled and totally innocent about what people talked about on the internet.. I honestly thought the building falling down meant the walls coming down between them. Thinking of the way Spike/Buffy had been bonding before they kissed, I had been lead down the garden path by the ME writers, and I was in complete denial and refused to see what was in front of my face. It's quite obvious that a physical relationship between an unsouled vampire and a slayer was a disaster in the making, but like I said--denial...

As for the final scene, I think I might have watched this with my jaw hung open. I know some people thought Spike/Buffybot were as racy, but I have to say I didn't think I'd seen anything on television as naughty as this was.. When I look back, they had on all their clothes, (even if the censors had told them to smoke up that final scene) so it hit me that it was the chemistry between Marsters/Gellar that was causing the scene to be smokin'. (and possibly the incredibly loud zipper on Spike's button flies)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It recently got the vote for hottest sex scene on tv, didn't it? Deservedly so. And yes, it proves that it isn't nudity that creates hotness. At all.

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

It was chosen in the top forty hottest sex scene EVER (movie and TV) and yes, it's made quite a few lists over the years.

The Parental council tried to have the episode banned, but then they said that DESTINY was naughty, too.

Several of their kisses have made some best of lists over the years too. (TV GUIDE greatest kisses ever, etc.)

Yes, I know this because I'm president of the LJ Marsters fan club. (I'm kidding, but I may as well be.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The Parental council tried to have the episode banned, but then they said that DESTINY was naughty, too.

Oh, and didn't they also complain about the clear indication Wesley going down on (spoiler) in season 4? Anyway, this reminds me of Joss mentioning that back in season 1, with the episode Teacher's Pet, he had trouble getting the WB to license the use of the word "virgin" (as in Xander was one). Little did they know what was to come...

Anyway, as I'm not a shipper this might amaze you, but I think when it comes to Buffy and Spike, they should also introduce the category "Meaningful Looks Exchanged" as they had quite a few memorable ones of those, too.

And in conclusion: that Smashed scene was hot. *g*

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

I must ship to be happy... I ship SpongeBob and Patrick. I need help.

Ha! I didn't know the Parental counsel got Wesley, too. (You'd think they would have been taking a hard look at Darla/Angel, too)

As for those looks exchanged by Spuffy, I'm a vidder and those are priceless.

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

(and possibly the incredibly loud zipper on Spike's button flies)

*laughs* Yeah, that's quite a give away to what they are up to exactly.
I totally agree: The scene is sizzling hot.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

First, one overall observation: I think it's significant that Buffy, kisses aside, doesn't have sex with Spike until learning he can kill her again. Because she's literally screwing death this season. And it ties back to his speech to her in Fool for Love - that one day, her ties to the world (friends, family) won't be enough and he'll slip in and have himself a really good day. Back then, Spike deliberately used the double meaning of Eros and Thanatos (in that speech, you can't tell whether he means "I'll kill you" or "We'll have sex"). And now Buffy does via her actions. She wouldn't make a deliberate suicide attempt any more, but on some level, having sex with a vampire who killed two Slayers and tried to kill her a couple of times in the past while provoking him verbally and physically is just that, if you ask me.

Willow's "for no reason at all": yes, she still refuses to acknowledge the truth, and is on a downwards spiral.

Regarding Buffy's insults: I have the impression that she uses as insults something she's afraid of herself. I'm pretty sure that at this point she already wonders if something is wrong with her and that she sees herself as an "evil, disgusting thing". Actually, what's happening to Buffy reminds me a lot of what happened to Faith.

Yes, indeed, and later on in DT the alley scene very much parallels the church scene between Buffy and Faith in Who Are You?, with both Slayers doing the same thing - screaming self-abuse at another person but meaning themselves while dealing out punches.

In season 7, Buffy has a great conversation with someone about her s 6 relationship with Spike which I'm really tempted to quote, but I want you to see that scene later unspoiled.

Andrew reenacting the famous scene from Mission Impossible made me smile.

Me, too. The Trio really allowed the writers to geek out in a major way with this kind of stuff.*g*

Love the scene where Spike visits the geek trio and bosses them around by taking the action figure of Boba Fett hostage. :-)

Warren's "you're not coming back that" (i.e. harming Boba Feet) cracks me up every time.

One reason I'm so amused by this scene is that it made me notice that Andrew has a lot in common with Spike's human self. Like William he's the artistic, sensitive type (playing the flute, lovingly spray painting the Death Star) who talks too much and stumbles over what he wants to say. Socially, he's a nobody. And as I saw a couple of epsisodes later he also has a dark side to his personality.

Very good point, very insightful of you; once you've seen the entire show, as well as AtS, I'll point you towards some examations of Andrew-Spike parallels, but alas now they're too spoilery.

Trivia for you: on the audio commentary, Drew Greenberg says that in his original draft, he had Willow and Amy put a spell on the boys who insulted Willow so they'd make out with each other, but Joss said that would imply boy-on-boy action was a punishment, which would be wrong. "And that was when I realized that Joss Whedon being straight is one of the greatest wastes in history."

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

I think it's significant that Buffy, kisses aside, doesn't have sex with Spike until learning he can kill her again.
Very good point!

Yes, indeed, and later on in DT the alley scene very much parallels the church scene between Buffy and Faith in Who Are You?, with both Slayers doing the same thing - screaming self-abuse at another person but meaning themselves while dealing out punches.

I agree completely. I love the parallel to Faith in Dead Things. (The title of this episode is absolutely brilliant, too. )

but Joss said that would imply boy-on-boy action was a punishment, which would be wrong. "And that was when I realized that Joss Whedon being straight is one of the greatest wastes in history."

Great tidbit. I heart Joss Whedon.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I love the parallel to Faith in Dead Things. (The title of this episode is absolutely brilliant, too. )

It was. Steven DeKnight has a thing for punning titles; the season 4 of AtS opener title, Deep Down, is full of several meanings as well.

Re: Faith: of course, there are other Faith parallels (and contrasts) going on in that particular scene as well.

I heart Joss Whedon.

He's the sadistic, black-humoured God whom one worships.*g*

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

First, one overall observation: I think it's significant that Buffy, kisses aside, doesn't have sex with Spike until learning he can kill her again. Because she's literally screwing death this season. And it ties back to his speech to her in Fool for Love - that one day, her ties to the world (friends, family) won't be enough and he'll slip in and have himself a really good day. Back then, Spike deliberately used the double meaning of Eros and Thanatos (in that speech, you can't tell whether he means "I'll kill you" or "We'll have sex"). And now Buffy does via her actions. She wouldn't make a deliberate suicide attempt any more, but on some level, having sex with a vampire who killed two Slayers and tried to kill her a couple of times in the past while provoking him verbally and physically is just that, if you ask me.

I think you make a good point, and when I watch FOOL FOR LOVE that definitely crosses my mind. Thalia has seen DEAD THINGS, so we can talk that far. Buffy says she doesn't trust Spike, but then she wears the handcuffs, so either she trusts him or she doesn't care what he does to her. Still, I think it's far more complicated than her just wanting him to kill her, though.

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

Still, I think it's far more complicated than her just wanting him to kill her, though.

Their relationship is extremely complex what makes it so interesting to watch.
I think that a part of Buffy wants Spike to be evil, to take advantage of her and to destroy her. But gradually she has to realise that Spike does care deeply for her and that a considerable part of the darkness in their relationship stems from herself and not from him.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Okay, now I can't resist quoting after all, because it fits so well. Okay, this is Buffy talking about her s 6 relationship with Spike to, well, someone. *is mysterious*

BUFFY: And the joke is... he loved me. I mean, in his own sick, soulless way, he really did care for me. But I-I didn't want to be loved. (...)
I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it. (...) I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved.

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. Especially that she still doesn't recognize Spike's feeling as a form of real love. She still puts it down by giving it the labels "sick" and "soulless". Apart from that I agree with her own psychoanalysis. *g*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Oh, she sees it as love, but not a healthy form of love. Which frankly I don't think it was, and not just because of Buffy's mental and emotional state in season 6, but also because, as karabair put it, soulless Spike's definition of love wasn't that different from Buffy's definition of "hating and using".

Or, to quote Luminosity from her commentary on her great magnum opus Scooby Road, about the Buffy/Spike in season 6 section of the same, Oh!Darling:

"Oh Darling! I didn't know what to do with this song. My first
consideration was making it about Xander and Anya, but I just couldn't
get cynical enough. Then elynross once again pointed out the
obvious--that this was about Spike and Buffy. At first, I went back
and forth, back and forth. Should it be funny, or should it be sad?
Should I play it straight and make a sympathetic Spike vid? Well. NO.
In a way, this is as much a meta response to fandom as it is a look at
how Spike viewed his relationship with Buffy. A relationship of
sexualized violence and degradation. That he relished. And loved.
Spike was more of a vampire here in S6 than at any other time that we
ever see him. (JMGLO, YMMV - see vid? *points*)

There's an underlying sense of, I don't know, *desperation* in the
lyrics. A subtext of panic. When the panic finally manifests, the
singer (Spike) does exactly the wrong thing. Every time. His
intentions are good, but he's *EVIL*. It can't end well."

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

Leave it to me, but since you brought it up.. I have often wondered what the shameful horrible things that She/spike were doing? When DEAD THINGS roll around, as far as sexual escapades, they just seem a bit kinky to me... Maybe a bit heavy on the S&M..but considering WHO they were (Slayer/Vampire) not that shocking---especially after what we've seen from Angel, Faith and Darla. The bad part for Spike (although he claimed not to care about it) was that she didn't want to connect with him (or anyone), and Spike makes the women in his life his whole world.

The only thing Shameful that I could see was that Buffy was addicted to having kinky sex with Spike, who doesn't have a soul. Seeing that he previously had tried to kill her and her friends, that's rather disturbing and maybe something she wouldn't want people to know about.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The only thing Shameful that I could see was that Buffy was addicted to having kinky sex with Spike, who doesn't have a soul. Seeing that he previously had tried to kill her and her friends, that's rather disturbing and maybe something she wouldn't want people to know about.

I think that's it, basically, not any particular practices. (Though okay, can't see Riley using handcuffs, and Angel and Parker definitely didn't during their one nights with Buffy.) (Point of comparison: when we later have Buffy, under a spell, initializing rough sex with someone in a certain later ep, she's later embarrassed because of the identity of said person, not because of the rough sex itself.) Also that Buffy pre-Spike probably saw herself as someone who would have sex only with someone she's in love with. And with Spike, she can't let it be love on her part in season 6, hence the idea that it is something she has to be ashamed of.

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

I don't see Riley using chains either, and with Angel, she was an innocent--just the one time with Parker, and he was trying to be the impressive lover and she found him sweet, (Until of course, she found out he was a player) so I doubt it.

I'm glad we agree! YAY.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

We also agree that the Smashed scene is hot. *g*

Oh, and your icon reminds me that I'm sure we agree Buffy was totally slashing Angel and Spike in her mind when she made her little observation re: them in Chosen. *veg*

(I'm even guessing we agree that Buffy was right when she said, also about the pair, that they're twelve when dealing with each other.*g*)

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

Considering what Joss and Fury have said, I'm sure they'd be up for it. ;)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

No doubt.*g* Have you read Joss "in my world, heroes bugger each other senseless" post in reply to someone at Whedonesque saying that surely, we were not to imply from certain s5 events that, etc.? Bless.

Oh, and I just heard the commentary for LMPTM. (For some reason, I hadn't gotten around to it before.) Have you? One part blew my mind, because it was so obvious and I hadn't noticed it before. (Re: Buffy and Female Person From Spike's Past In This Episode.)

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

"in my world, heroes bugger each other senseless"

Quotes like these melt my heart.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I sent you a more extensive quote from that post a while ago, didn't I?

*encourages molten heart*

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

I sent you a more extensive quote from that post a while ago, didn't I?

I can't remember it right now. Can't find it in my file where I store all the interesting essays and quotes.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Just sent it again, to both addresses this time, to be sure.

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

Yes, and I don't know what to make of that. Re: buffy and the person from Spike's past in this episode..

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Has there been any fanfic dealing with this, just for curiosity's sake? And do you think it ever occured to Spike, consciously?

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

I'm sure there is, (and in fact, I think I am recalling one where she is actually her in a back to the future scenario) but I can't think of the name of it or any details..

Why don't you give it a go?

Considering his reaction to the things that happened, I think it would conciously freak him out, to be honest.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

and in fact, I think I am recalling one where she is actually her in a back to the future scenario

Wow, that's twisted. *said in an admiring way*

Considering his reaction to the things that happened, I think it would conciously freak him out, to be honest.

Definitely. But it just hit me that... nah. Can't think of any way to phrase this without spoiling poor Thalia too much.

Why don't you give it a go?

Who knows, I just might. Not now, though. I've got about three different things to write.

BTW, on the flip side, it totally cracks me up in season 5 when both Angel and Spike, trying to comfort *spoiler* about *spoiler's* deed in Lineage, both basically say "hey, who here hasn't?" *veg*

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

That scene in Lineage drives me crazy, because it is so NOT them. (at least not to me) -- Just another one of those Drew Goddard episodes that drive me bonkers.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Ahem, Angel jokes about the, err, thing in season 1 and Sense and Sensitivity. (Which is a Tim Minear ep.) Doesn't mean he doesn't feel horrible about it, just that he has a very dark sense of humour at times. And you know, Buffy jokes quite often about having been dead (and we know the resurrection thing was awful for her), as in "I'm pretty spry for a corpse" (OMWF), the Rat/Dead exchange with Amy in Smashed, "Did Willow put that there? 'Cause if I had known, I'd have come out of the grave sooner" (Entropy), and so on. That's what many a Jossverse character does about truly awful trauma in order to deal. Jokes. Spike, of all the people, should be different?

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

t's not the joking, (From Angel) but this was huge to Spike, like Buffy's mother's death was huge to Buffy.

I just don't see him yelling it out to everyone who would listen-- Not after keeping it to himself for all those years. Also, Spike jokes, but...not that.. It obviously traumatized him.

It's like Buffy making jokes about her mother's death. I don't see it and those two are quite a bit alike.

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

I've recently read two fascinating Garak/Bashir stories, a pairing I hardly read anymore because most writers don't get Garak, i.e. write CompletelyRedeemed!Garak.

Anyway, part of this story is that Bashir has kinky sex with Garak at one time - and then is confronted with the harsh truth that tying people up was not always a game for Garak, that this was his job. This ultimately confronts Bashir with the even harsher truth that part of him *knew* what Garak was and was turned on exactly because of this. So what does this say about him?

I think this has some parallels to Buffy and Spike. If Buffy enjoys being tied up by Spike what does it say about her? He has certainly done similar things in the past, just rarely with a pleasant outcome... (Dru would be the exception here.)

Just in case you're interested: The two G/B stories I mentioned are called Condemnation (http://www.memory-prime.de/elizabethhelena/Condemnation.html) and Guilt (http://www.memory-prime.de/elizabethhelena/Guilt.html).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

a pairing I hardly read anymore because most writers don't get Garak, i.e. write CompletelyRedeemed!Garak.

I have the same problem, and hence am very grateful for the links. I'll check out those stories at once. (Once I wrote a "Five Things Which Never Happened Between Garak and Bashir" (aka "Paths Not Taken" in my ffn account, because the title was too long) because altariel1 dared me to, and tried hard to avoid that mistake.)

I think this has some parallels to Buffy and Spike. If Buffy enjoys being tied up by Spike what does it say about her? He has certainly done similar things in the past, just rarely with a pleasant outcome... (Dru would be the exception here.)

Very good point, and excellent comparison, yes.