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thalia_seawoodBargaining - Part 1 & 2
For a summary click here.
- Another one of my favorite Buffy episodes.
- The episode starts with the entire team working together to slay vampires. This shows very clearly how efficient Buffy was. Now that she's gone, the entire team is needed to keep the demons in line.
It's interesting to see that Willow has stepped into the leadership position and not Giles. Also interesting to see that as in The Gift she uses telepathy to coordinate the group and that not everybody is pleased to have Willow's voice in their heads.
Both Tara and Spike have become full members of the team and work together with the other Scoobies.
Since The Gift, Giles and Spike apparently have started to get along as can be seen by these bits of dialogue. IMO, Giles and Spike could be friends - as long as Buffy is not there. As soon as Buffy is present, Giles will become protective of her and see Spike as a threat.
TARA: It's not supposed to mix with anything, you think he might be taking prescription medication?
SPIKE: (sarcastic) Yeah, that must be it.
GILES: Good god, I hope he doesn't try to operate heavy machinery.
Giles and Spike laugh.
Spike takes a drag on his cigarette, saunters over to Giles and holds out his hand. Giles takes it and Spike helps him up.
GILES: You might have let me in on your plan while he throttled me.
SPIKE: Oh, poor Watcher. Did your life pass before your eyes? Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea?
- The Buffybot:
Absolutely fascinating how the writers use the Buffybot: It starts out as comic relief, then becomes an important weapon in the fight against Glory. In the beginning of season 6, the presence of the Buffybot must be extremely painful for all Scoobies. It's a constant reminder of what they have lost.
I've been wondering why the Scoobies don't tell anyone that Buffy is dead.
One reason is probably that Dawn would then have to move away from Sunnydale or live in a foster family. This is definitely not something she would want to do. After all that she has lost, she would want to stay with Buffy's friends.
Another reason is, of course, that Faith, the Slayer that would succeed Buffy is still in prison and cannot guard the Hellmouth. To keep Sunnydale safe, they have to pretend that Buffy is still alive.
And another reason is probably Willow's plan to bring Buffy back from the dead.
- Willow and Tara have moved into the Summers' house to take care of Dawn.
- The relationship between Giles and Anya is interesting. Around Anya, Giles all of a sudden starts acting immature.
ANYA: (indignant) Oh, huh. Aren't you Mister Dicey Semantics. So, what, you think you can just take anything you want?
She grabs the statue back from Giles. He looks angry, tries to grab it back, and they both pull at it.
ANYA: Give it!
GILES: No, you give it!
Anya begins smacking his hand with her free hand.
GILES: Ow! Ow!
- I like the development that Giles is moving back to England and that Anya will take care of the Magic Shop in the meantime. Makes perfect sense.
- So Anya and Xander haven't told anyone about their marriage plans yet. Hmmm...
- As always I heart the interaction between Spike and Dawn.
This excerpt also gives us some insight into what Spike thinks of schools. I get the feeling that he did not care for school as a child. School in the 19th century must have involved a lot of learning by repeating things endlessly and I can see William just daydreaming instead of paying attention to his teachers.
DAWN: So my homeroom teacher, Ms. Lefcort, was like, "Your sister's an example to us all." Hmm! She wanted to make it National Buffy Day.
She puts the glass on the coffee-table and sits on the sofa next to Spike. There's a pizza box on the coffee-table, and a plate with a half-eaten slice of pizza.
SPIKE: Makes sense.
DAWN: It does?
SPIKE: Yeah, she responded to BuffyBot because a robot is predictable. Boring. Perfect teacher's pet. That's all schools are, you know. Just factories, spewing out mindless little automatons.
He sees Dawn's raised eyebrows.
SPIKE: (quickly) Who go on to be ... very ... valuable and productive members of society, and you should go. (quieter) Because Buffy would want you to.
Beat. They both look pensive.
DAWN: Check. One mindless automaton coming up.
- This bit made me laugh out loud:
TARA: You found the last known urn of Osiris on eBay?
ANYA: Yeah, from this desert gnome in Cairo. He drove a really hard bargain, but I finally got him to throw in a limited edition Backstreet Boys lunchbox for a -
Xander coughs. Anya pauses. Xander looks nervous.
ANYA: ...a friend.
- Found this bit fascinating.
I believe that Willow is convinced by what she says. She's certain that what she's doing is the right thing.
On the other hand, she's also very good in justifying her actions and lying to herself. I think she deliberately doesn't want to consider that Buffy might really be dead. After all, if something is unpleasant you can always fix it with magic...
WILLOW: This isn't like Dawn trying to bring Mrs. Summers back, or anything we've dealt with before. Buffy didn't die a natural death. She was killed by mystical energy.
TARA: Which means we do have a shot.
WILLOW: It means more than that. (to Xander) It means we don't know ... where she really is.
XANDER: We saw her body, Will. We buried it.
WILLOW: Her body, yeah. But her soul ... her essence ... I mean, that could be somewhere else. She could be trapped, in-in some sort of hell dimension like Angel was. (tearfully) Suffering eternal torment, just because she saved us, and I'm not gonna let ... I'm not gonna leave her there. (intensely) It's Buffy.
What amazed me is that Tara is willing to go along with Willow's plan. She knows that what they're trying to do is wrong and would be happy to not go through with the plan. (TARA: It is wrong. (Willow looks surprised) It's against all the laws of nature, and practically impossible to do, but it's what we agreed to. If-if you guys are changing your minds-) I guess she doesn't make a stronger point against the resurrection plan, because not only is Willow her hero, Willow has also been elected as the leader of the group. Tara doesn't want to cause any disharmony, she prefers to go along with the plans of the group.
- Everything has consequences... This is something that Spike has to learn when the Buffybot still shows an interest in him. It's quite ironic that he wanted the Buffybot so he could play make belief, yet now would be happy if it was gone. After all, it's reminds him of Buffy's death on a daily basis.
BUFFYBOT: Sorry I questioned you, Spike. (Spike looks surprised) You know I admire your brain almost as much as your washboard abs. (big smile)
Spike looks pained.
SPIKE: (quietly to Willow) I told you to make her stop doing that.
- One of the most touching scenes in the episode is Dawn cuddling up to Buffybot. The Buffybot started as a sextoy, but now provides some comfort for Dawn.
- Giles training the Buffybot is another painful scene, especially when he tries to teach it topics the Buffybot will not be able to truly understand. Anya is right: You know, she's not the descendant of a long line of mystical warriors. She's the descendant of a toaster oven.
- Willow kills a fawn in order to gain the blood needed for the resurrection spell.
That's a *very* interesting scene.
It's visually arresting with Willow dressed all in white surrounded by a fairy tale landscape. When we see the knife lying next to Willow, that's a big contrast to the peaceful setting.
The scene shows that Willow is a "the end justifies the means" person. Now if this was only about the blood of a deer, I wouldn't even be that sentimental. But due to the invocation I'm pretty certain that the fawn is more than a fawn. I believe it's a pure spirit that takes the form of the fawn. (WILLOW: Come forward, blessed one.)
Me thinks Willow Rosenberg is related to Anakin Skywalker who is also willing to shed innocent blood in order to achieve the power to save Padmé from death.
- Giles leaves Sunnydale and the Scoobies say good-bye. A very touching scene, in particular how everyone tries to be cheerful and optimistic.
- This scene gave me goosebumps. It's such a stark contrast: The Sunnydale airport in the sunlight versus the plans regarding Buffy's resurrection.
XANDER: (to Willow) Can you believe the timing? I mean, he's leaving right when we're ready to... (Willow glances nervously toward Dawn) ...do the thing tonight.
WILLOW: (still looking at the sky) I know, I had hoped we'd figure it out before he, uh ... before he left.
ANYA: Maybe we should have told him. I mean, what if it works?
WILLOW: (still looking at the sky) He'll come back.
Beat. Xander fidgets.
XANDER: It'll be dark soon.
WILLOW: Yeah, we should get Dawn home. I want to go over everything one more time. Nothing can go wrong tonight.
She walks on. Xander and Anya follow.
Lingering shot of the front of the airport building.
Fade to aerial shot of Sunnydale, twilight. The sun is just setting.
- The resurrection spell:
Willow morals are scewed, but nevertheless I admire her willpower. If she sets her mind on something nothing will stop her, not even pain.
- The invocation is interrupted by the arrival of the demon motorcycle gang - and Buffy wakes in her coffin and has to get out without any help from her friends.
Not only is this scene extremely creepy, it also works on a symbolic level:
Her friends brings her back from death, but will not be able to assist her with living. Buffy will have to rely on her own strength to escape from the grave, i.e. her inner darkness and her despair.
Another interesting aspect of the scene is that it draws a parallel between the Slayer and the vampires she hunts. After all, when vampires rise for the first time they usually rise from their coffins and have to claw their way out. To me this suggests that Buffy is not longer a human girl with special powers, she has now even more in common with her prey. (This is a development that already started at the end of season 4, when Buffy invoked the power of the First Slayer and she become more predatory as a result.)
- Spike tries to protect Dawn from the demon motorcycle gang and overall does a good job. However, when he doesn't pay attention for a moment, Dawn runs off. Considering that Spike was unable to rescue her in The Gift, this must bring back very bad memories. After all, he has promised Buffy to protect Dawn and right now it looks as if he will not be able to keep this promise.
- Tara guides Willow and Xander out of the dark forest.
I wonder if this scene foreshadows future developments. It could certainly be seen as symbolic in as far as Tara is Willow's moral compass, her light in the darkness so to speak.
- The world must be such a confusing place for Buffy. She obviously has no idea where she is at first or how much time has passed. She is surrounded by chaos, fire and pain - small wonder that she believes that she has arrived in hell.
To make her confusion complete she encounters the Buffybot and sees how her doppelganger is ripped to shreds by the demon gang.
- The Scoobies encounter resurrected Buffy, but cannot build a connection to her at all.
- Buffy kills the demons who threaten her and the Scoobies.
Love how the fight scenes are filmed. Buffy's fight is no longer flashy, but very dark and gritty. (The darkness of this fight scene reminds me of Buffy killing the vampire in The Body.)
- XANDER: (OS) The important thing is that she's back. She'll be fine.
Xander's comment stroke me as pretty scary, considering that Buffy not only didn't react to the Scoobies but also killed in the demons in a very brutal way.
- Tara kills a demon with an axe in order to protect Willow.
I think this is the first time we see Tara kill. She does it to save Willow's life, but still I felt that it signalled her loss of innocence.
- Dawn finds Buffy on top of the tower.
I'm wondering if Dawn can sense Buffy's whereabouts. After all, Dawn was created out of Buffy and due to this connection Buffy's sacrifice could close the breach between the dimensions.
- The scene on top of the tower gives us a fantastic performance by SMG.
When Buffy jumped from the tower in The Gift everything was clear to her, she knew exactly what she had to do. Now she's arrived at the same spot, but all clarity has been taken away from her.
BUFFY: (quietly) Is ... this hell?
DAWN: (confused) What?
Buffy turns to face Dawn with an anguished frown.
BUFFY: Is this hell?
DAWN: No! Buffy, no! (taking a tiny step closer) You're here ... with me. (another tiny step) Whatever happened to you, whatever you've been through, it's ... it's over now. You're-
The tower shakes again. Dawn shrieks
DAWN: We have to get off this tower!
Buffy turns to look down again.
BUFFY: (quietly) It was so ... clear ... on this spot. I remember ... how ... shiny ... and clear everything was. (shakes her head) But ... now ... now...
- Tarot thought:
Buffy and Dawn falling from the tower while it falls apart behind them, would make an interesting choice for the card of "XVI. The Tower".
- The only reason Buffy doesn't kill herself in the end of Bargaining is Dawn. Buffy can feel that Dawn needs her; she has always protected Dawn, so her protective instincts take over again. I wouldn't say that Buffy loves Dawn actively in The Bargaining. I don't think that she is able to feel anything apart from confusion and despair at this point.
DAWN: Buffy. You ... you ... (touches Buffy's cheek) ...you're really here.
Dawn hugs Buffy.
DAWN: (crying) You're alive, and you're home. You're home.
Shot of Buffy's face over Dawn's shoulder. She doesn't look very happy.
For a summary click here.
- Another one of my favorite Buffy episodes.
- The episode starts with the entire team working together to slay vampires. This shows very clearly how efficient Buffy was. Now that she's gone, the entire team is needed to keep the demons in line.
It's interesting to see that Willow has stepped into the leadership position and not Giles. Also interesting to see that as in The Gift she uses telepathy to coordinate the group and that not everybody is pleased to have Willow's voice in their heads.
Both Tara and Spike have become full members of the team and work together with the other Scoobies.
Since The Gift, Giles and Spike apparently have started to get along as can be seen by these bits of dialogue. IMO, Giles and Spike could be friends - as long as Buffy is not there. As soon as Buffy is present, Giles will become protective of her and see Spike as a threat.
TARA: It's not supposed to mix with anything, you think he might be taking prescription medication?
SPIKE: (sarcastic) Yeah, that must be it.
GILES: Good god, I hope he doesn't try to operate heavy machinery.
Giles and Spike laugh.
Spike takes a drag on his cigarette, saunters over to Giles and holds out his hand. Giles takes it and Spike helps him up.
GILES: You might have let me in on your plan while he throttled me.
SPIKE: Oh, poor Watcher. Did your life pass before your eyes? Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea?
- The Buffybot:
Absolutely fascinating how the writers use the Buffybot: It starts out as comic relief, then becomes an important weapon in the fight against Glory. In the beginning of season 6, the presence of the Buffybot must be extremely painful for all Scoobies. It's a constant reminder of what they have lost.
I've been wondering why the Scoobies don't tell anyone that Buffy is dead.
One reason is probably that Dawn would then have to move away from Sunnydale or live in a foster family. This is definitely not something she would want to do. After all that she has lost, she would want to stay with Buffy's friends.
Another reason is, of course, that Faith, the Slayer that would succeed Buffy is still in prison and cannot guard the Hellmouth. To keep Sunnydale safe, they have to pretend that Buffy is still alive.
And another reason is probably Willow's plan to bring Buffy back from the dead.
- Willow and Tara have moved into the Summers' house to take care of Dawn.
- The relationship between Giles and Anya is interesting. Around Anya, Giles all of a sudden starts acting immature.
ANYA: (indignant) Oh, huh. Aren't you Mister Dicey Semantics. So, what, you think you can just take anything you want?
She grabs the statue back from Giles. He looks angry, tries to grab it back, and they both pull at it.
ANYA: Give it!
GILES: No, you give it!
Anya begins smacking his hand with her free hand.
GILES: Ow! Ow!
- I like the development that Giles is moving back to England and that Anya will take care of the Magic Shop in the meantime. Makes perfect sense.
- So Anya and Xander haven't told anyone about their marriage plans yet. Hmmm...
- As always I heart the interaction between Spike and Dawn.
This excerpt also gives us some insight into what Spike thinks of schools. I get the feeling that he did not care for school as a child. School in the 19th century must have involved a lot of learning by repeating things endlessly and I can see William just daydreaming instead of paying attention to his teachers.
DAWN: So my homeroom teacher, Ms. Lefcort, was like, "Your sister's an example to us all." Hmm! She wanted to make it National Buffy Day.
She puts the glass on the coffee-table and sits on the sofa next to Spike. There's a pizza box on the coffee-table, and a plate with a half-eaten slice of pizza.
SPIKE: Makes sense.
DAWN: It does?
SPIKE: Yeah, she responded to BuffyBot because a robot is predictable. Boring. Perfect teacher's pet. That's all schools are, you know. Just factories, spewing out mindless little automatons.
He sees Dawn's raised eyebrows.
SPIKE: (quickly) Who go on to be ... very ... valuable and productive members of society, and you should go. (quieter) Because Buffy would want you to.
Beat. They both look pensive.
DAWN: Check. One mindless automaton coming up.
- This bit made me laugh out loud:
TARA: You found the last known urn of Osiris on eBay?
ANYA: Yeah, from this desert gnome in Cairo. He drove a really hard bargain, but I finally got him to throw in a limited edition Backstreet Boys lunchbox for a -
Xander coughs. Anya pauses. Xander looks nervous.
ANYA: ...a friend.
- Found this bit fascinating.
I believe that Willow is convinced by what she says. She's certain that what she's doing is the right thing.
On the other hand, she's also very good in justifying her actions and lying to herself. I think she deliberately doesn't want to consider that Buffy might really be dead. After all, if something is unpleasant you can always fix it with magic...
WILLOW: This isn't like Dawn trying to bring Mrs. Summers back, or anything we've dealt with before. Buffy didn't die a natural death. She was killed by mystical energy.
TARA: Which means we do have a shot.
WILLOW: It means more than that. (to Xander) It means we don't know ... where she really is.
XANDER: We saw her body, Will. We buried it.
WILLOW: Her body, yeah. But her soul ... her essence ... I mean, that could be somewhere else. She could be trapped, in-in some sort of hell dimension like Angel was. (tearfully) Suffering eternal torment, just because she saved us, and I'm not gonna let ... I'm not gonna leave her there. (intensely) It's Buffy.
What amazed me is that Tara is willing to go along with Willow's plan. She knows that what they're trying to do is wrong and would be happy to not go through with the plan. (TARA: It is wrong. (Willow looks surprised) It's against all the laws of nature, and practically impossible to do, but it's what we agreed to. If-if you guys are changing your minds-) I guess she doesn't make a stronger point against the resurrection plan, because not only is Willow her hero, Willow has also been elected as the leader of the group. Tara doesn't want to cause any disharmony, she prefers to go along with the plans of the group.
- Everything has consequences... This is something that Spike has to learn when the Buffybot still shows an interest in him. It's quite ironic that he wanted the Buffybot so he could play make belief, yet now would be happy if it was gone. After all, it's reminds him of Buffy's death on a daily basis.
BUFFYBOT: Sorry I questioned you, Spike. (Spike looks surprised) You know I admire your brain almost as much as your washboard abs. (big smile)
Spike looks pained.
SPIKE: (quietly to Willow) I told you to make her stop doing that.
- One of the most touching scenes in the episode is Dawn cuddling up to Buffybot. The Buffybot started as a sextoy, but now provides some comfort for Dawn.
- Giles training the Buffybot is another painful scene, especially when he tries to teach it topics the Buffybot will not be able to truly understand. Anya is right: You know, she's not the descendant of a long line of mystical warriors. She's the descendant of a toaster oven.
- Willow kills a fawn in order to gain the blood needed for the resurrection spell.
That's a *very* interesting scene.
It's visually arresting with Willow dressed all in white surrounded by a fairy tale landscape. When we see the knife lying next to Willow, that's a big contrast to the peaceful setting.
The scene shows that Willow is a "the end justifies the means" person. Now if this was only about the blood of a deer, I wouldn't even be that sentimental. But due to the invocation I'm pretty certain that the fawn is more than a fawn. I believe it's a pure spirit that takes the form of the fawn. (WILLOW: Come forward, blessed one.)
Me thinks Willow Rosenberg is related to Anakin Skywalker who is also willing to shed innocent blood in order to achieve the power to save Padmé from death.
- Giles leaves Sunnydale and the Scoobies say good-bye. A very touching scene, in particular how everyone tries to be cheerful and optimistic.
- This scene gave me goosebumps. It's such a stark contrast: The Sunnydale airport in the sunlight versus the plans regarding Buffy's resurrection.
XANDER: (to Willow) Can you believe the timing? I mean, he's leaving right when we're ready to... (Willow glances nervously toward Dawn) ...do the thing tonight.
WILLOW: (still looking at the sky) I know, I had hoped we'd figure it out before he, uh ... before he left.
ANYA: Maybe we should have told him. I mean, what if it works?
WILLOW: (still looking at the sky) He'll come back.
Beat. Xander fidgets.
XANDER: It'll be dark soon.
WILLOW: Yeah, we should get Dawn home. I want to go over everything one more time. Nothing can go wrong tonight.
She walks on. Xander and Anya follow.
Lingering shot of the front of the airport building.
Fade to aerial shot of Sunnydale, twilight. The sun is just setting.
- The resurrection spell:
Willow morals are scewed, but nevertheless I admire her willpower. If she sets her mind on something nothing will stop her, not even pain.
- The invocation is interrupted by the arrival of the demon motorcycle gang - and Buffy wakes in her coffin and has to get out without any help from her friends.
Not only is this scene extremely creepy, it also works on a symbolic level:
Her friends brings her back from death, but will not be able to assist her with living. Buffy will have to rely on her own strength to escape from the grave, i.e. her inner darkness and her despair.
Another interesting aspect of the scene is that it draws a parallel between the Slayer and the vampires she hunts. After all, when vampires rise for the first time they usually rise from their coffins and have to claw their way out. To me this suggests that Buffy is not longer a human girl with special powers, she has now even more in common with her prey. (This is a development that already started at the end of season 4, when Buffy invoked the power of the First Slayer and she become more predatory as a result.)
- Spike tries to protect Dawn from the demon motorcycle gang and overall does a good job. However, when he doesn't pay attention for a moment, Dawn runs off. Considering that Spike was unable to rescue her in The Gift, this must bring back very bad memories. After all, he has promised Buffy to protect Dawn and right now it looks as if he will not be able to keep this promise.
- Tara guides Willow and Xander out of the dark forest.
I wonder if this scene foreshadows future developments. It could certainly be seen as symbolic in as far as Tara is Willow's moral compass, her light in the darkness so to speak.
- The world must be such a confusing place for Buffy. She obviously has no idea where she is at first or how much time has passed. She is surrounded by chaos, fire and pain - small wonder that she believes that she has arrived in hell.
To make her confusion complete she encounters the Buffybot and sees how her doppelganger is ripped to shreds by the demon gang.
- The Scoobies encounter resurrected Buffy, but cannot build a connection to her at all.
- Buffy kills the demons who threaten her and the Scoobies.
Love how the fight scenes are filmed. Buffy's fight is no longer flashy, but very dark and gritty. (The darkness of this fight scene reminds me of Buffy killing the vampire in The Body.)
- XANDER: (OS) The important thing is that she's back. She'll be fine.
Xander's comment stroke me as pretty scary, considering that Buffy not only didn't react to the Scoobies but also killed in the demons in a very brutal way.
- Tara kills a demon with an axe in order to protect Willow.
I think this is the first time we see Tara kill. She does it to save Willow's life, but still I felt that it signalled her loss of innocence.
- Dawn finds Buffy on top of the tower.
I'm wondering if Dawn can sense Buffy's whereabouts. After all, Dawn was created out of Buffy and due to this connection Buffy's sacrifice could close the breach between the dimensions.
- The scene on top of the tower gives us a fantastic performance by SMG.
When Buffy jumped from the tower in The Gift everything was clear to her, she knew exactly what she had to do. Now she's arrived at the same spot, but all clarity has been taken away from her.
BUFFY: (quietly) Is ... this hell?
DAWN: (confused) What?
Buffy turns to face Dawn with an anguished frown.
BUFFY: Is this hell?
DAWN: No! Buffy, no! (taking a tiny step closer) You're here ... with me. (another tiny step) Whatever happened to you, whatever you've been through, it's ... it's over now. You're-
The tower shakes again. Dawn shrieks
DAWN: We have to get off this tower!
Buffy turns to look down again.
BUFFY: (quietly) It was so ... clear ... on this spot. I remember ... how ... shiny ... and clear everything was. (shakes her head) But ... now ... now...
- Tarot thought:
Buffy and Dawn falling from the tower while it falls apart behind them, would make an interesting choice for the card of "XVI. The Tower".
- The only reason Buffy doesn't kill herself in the end of Bargaining is Dawn. Buffy can feel that Dawn needs her; she has always protected Dawn, so her protective instincts take over again. I wouldn't say that Buffy loves Dawn actively in The Bargaining. I don't think that she is able to feel anything apart from confusion and despair at this point.
DAWN: Buffy. You ... you ... (touches Buffy's cheek) ...you're really here.
Dawn hugs Buffy.
DAWN: (crying) You're alive, and you're home. You're home.
Shot of Buffy's face over Dawn's shoulder. She doesn't look very happy.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2006-01-29 06:17 pm (UTC)''Since The Gift, Giles and Spike apparently have started to get along as can be seen by these bits of dialogue. IMO, Giles and Spike could be friends - as long as Buffy is not there. As soon as Buffy is present, Giles will become protective of her and see Spike as a threat.''
That's exactly how I felt about all scenario. At the beginning of this season we see the Scoobies working with Spike as a team, and as you say getting on (at least on the surface) quite nicely with Giles. After Buffy comes back that all goes to hell, and the likes of Xander and Giles start to feel uneasy about working with an unsouled vamp again.
So strangely enough if Buffy had stayed dead, all their lives might have been a hell of a lot easier, including Tara who may have been saved from her fate at Warren's hands.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 06:59 am (UTC)It would be easier for them to accept Angel. After all, he's got a soul, a real conscience. Spike doesn't have that. Yes, he's in love with Buffy. But I don't think loves equals a conscience. After all, Spike also loved Drusilla for over 100 years and would have done everything to please her.
So strangely enough if Buffy had stayed dead, all their lives might have been a hell of a lot easier, including Tara who may have been saved from her fate at Warren's hands.
Careful with the spoilers, please. I have some spoilers for Spike, but in general I don't know what happens when to whom and the circumstances. E.g. I don't know who will survive season 7.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 12:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 09:31 pm (UTC)Angel: Season 3, episode 4. (Will hopefully watch two more eps tonight.)
no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 12:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 02:12 pm (UTC)I'm so used to everyone knowing these seasons 'like the back of their hand' that I forget not everyone has viewd the series that way.
I deeply appologise for being so thoughtless, and opening my my big mouth!
*smacks head*
I do hoep that you will forgive me.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 09:29 pm (UTC)I will put up a header in my journal that will also include a countdown of how many episodes I still have to see.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-29 06:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 06:52 am (UTC)The one thing I haven't decided on is if William would have been good at sports as a boy. (E.g. cricket or rowing.) I wonder if he had any natural talents in this area as a human or if his great fighting style in his vampire existence is due to his demon and his wish to succeed.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 04:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 09:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-29 09:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-29 09:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 07:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 06:54 am (UTC)Beware the spoilers though. I have three spoilers regarding Spike's future and have been told that Angel has a high mortality rate, but that's about it. And even regarding the spoilers I don't know what happens when in which way.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 03:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 09:28 pm (UTC)The internet is a risky place...
no subject
Date: 2006-01-29 10:36 pm (UTC)One of the more interesting fics I've read dealing with "Bargaining" is Sunday Morning Coming Down by
The opening chapters are particularly intersting re: how Xander deals with Buffy's death (the caveat, despite being a Spander story, is that it's a not-quite-finished WIP and I'm not sure if it's going to be finished; but the part dealing with the resurrection is all there and I think what's left to be written is mostly re: the shippy aspects that I don't especially care about anyway) :)
Another note, I was thinking about your watch-through when I wrote my latest story, Piatto Dolce. I haven't read much fic set between seasons 2 & 3 of AtS, which strikes me as a potentially fruitful time, storywise (with both Angel and Buffy gone!)
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Date: 2006-01-30 07:04 am (UTC)Thanks for the recs!
Am looking forward to reading your story.
Regarding the Spander story: I really wanted to read a story with them that deals with the aftermath of Bargaining and Afterlife, but couldn't find anything. Seems your rec covers exactly this scenario. Excellent.
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Date: 2006-01-30 07:10 am (UTC)though the 'sunday' story is actually set pre-'bargaining' and ends up presenting a somewhat alt-scenario. I haven't read much else set in early s6 so i'm not very useful!
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Date: 2006-01-30 09:40 pm (UTC)Like I said before, if I ever wrote Spander fanfiction, I would always start with the scenes in which Spike and Xander do not get along, e.g. when Spike gets excluded in Afterlife.
So far, nearly every Spander story I looked at, avoids the really difficult point of their relationship. The writers only seem to focus on the shippy moments these two have -- and while these moments exist, they are too rare to sustain the ship, IMO.
So instead of trying to take the hard road and acknowledge that Spike and Xander would *not* get along just like that, there are many sugary sweet stories that go AU as soon as canon gets too difficult to handle. Small wonder most stories seem to take place in season 4.
And while I'm ranting: Another pet peeve of mine, is PoorMistreated!Spike and Evil!Riley.
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Date: 2006-01-30 09:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-03 06:55 pm (UTC)Thanks for the rec! This is definitely an outstanding Spander story that doesn't fall into the trap of easy "I love you" declarations.
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Date: 2006-01-31 03:53 pm (UTC)I'm really hoping that doing so will help me with my Willow dislike, because of all the characters in both verses, this is the one I came away not liking. I think I'm being unfair to her, since it's no secret Joss wanted us to love and adore this character.. (and possibly Andrew, for reasons I'll explain later)
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Date: 2006-02-01 11:13 pm (UTC)That tactic comes up a lot in Spike fanfiction, but also when Buffy or Angel are at the center of the story. Someone just needs to play the evil part.
Maybe that's why I like the TV show so much: Even when characters do something that's wrong, you can (most of the time) still understand why they are doing it. It doesn't make their actions right, of course, but it allows you to still feel some sympathy.
Willow: She was never my favorite. I guess it's because people who take ages to say what they want to say drive me up the wall quite easily. I'm just not that patient to listen to a lot of flustered babbling.
Later on, she falls into the category of people I dislike most in daily life: She's a "well-meaner" and a meddler. She pretends to act in the best interests of others, but actually mostly serves herself.
However, while I don't like her much, I'm now beginning to find her character interesting. Am really curious what will happen to her till the end of season 7.
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Date: 2006-03-11 09:03 am (UTC)That and the multitude of Xander Stus in Xander fics, there are few pairings where one of the chars is so badly turned into a Mary Sue as Spander. It often makes me wonder if these writers even like Xander.
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Date: 2006-03-12 01:18 am (UTC)Yes! Xander has weak self-esteem at times, but there's never any doubt that Willow and Buffy care deeply for him.
If you know any good Spander stories, please let me know. I do think Spander could have a lot of potential - but only if Spike and Xander are still recognizable as themselves and the very real problems they have with one another aren't simply ignored.
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Date: 2006-03-12 11:40 am (UTC)I started a com
(it's like evey other spander fic is talking about the hyena or the soldier, as if they're some kind of alternate personalities that are still in Xander's head.)
As if Xander isn't interesting, if he hasn't got some kind of superpower. While to me what interested me about the char was that he was a regular guy, with no powers, no special reasons for being there... and he was still risking his life to help Buffy and the others.
There are a few good Xander fics though. Currently I'm reading: The Rescue which is being written by a first time s/x writer, it's not perfect, but I like the interactions between the characters. Like most of my favorite s/x though, it plays post NFA with a slightly more matured Xander. Then again, I do have a soft spot for h/C so I might be biased*g*
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Date: 2006-03-19 09:35 am (UTC)While to me what interested me about the char was that he was a regular guy, with no powers, no special reasons for being there... and he was still risking his life to help Buffy and the others.
Exactly! And he has so much courage! Even in the early seasons, he and Willow go out to hunt vampires on their own.
Yesterday evening I was trying once again some Spander fiction that actually deals with the aftermath of some problematic episodes. E.g. Buffy's ressurection and Spike's exclusion from the Scoobie gang in the beginning of season 6. Couldn't find anything. :-(
If you have any links to episode related Spander, I would appreciate them. (Most writers seem to set there stories vaguely in the middle of season 4 where it's easy to get them together. Where's the challenge in that?)
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Date: 2006-01-30 12:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-30 09:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 07:24 am (UTC)On the other hand, she's also very good in justifying her actions and lying to herself. I think she deliberately doesn't want to consider that Buffy might really be dead. After all, if something is unpleasant you can always fix it with magic...
Yes, and aside from this development making sense in terms of Willow's personal arc since season 2, it's also a clever meta way for the writers to address something: in a fictional universe where magic is possible, why shouldn't you use it to fix everything? S 6 is why.
The use of the Buffybot throughout Bargaining: yes, it has genuine pathos. Also, it's a great double act for SMG - the innocent cheerful Buffybot on the one hand, and traumatized, almost autistic Buffy on the other.
Willow Rosenberg and Anakin Skywalker: you are not the first one to think so.*g*
Another interesting aspect of the scene is that it draws a parallel between the Slayer and the vampires she hunts. After all, when vampires rise for the first time they usually rise from their coffins and have to claw their way out. To me this suggests that Buffy is not longer a human girl with special powers, she has now even more in common with her prey. (This is a development that already started at the end of season 4, when Buffy invoked the power of the First Slayer and she become more predatory as a result.)
Yes. In mythological terms, she has gone to the underworld, and something of it stays with her now, and always will.
The world must be such a confusing place for Buffy. She obviously has no idea where she is at first or how much time has passed. She is surrounded by chaos, fire and pain - small wonder that she believes that she has arrived in hell.
Quite. Considering the circumstances, I wouldn't have been surprised if she had ended up as insane as Drusilla.
To make her confusion complete she encounters the Buffybot and sees how her doppelganger is ripped to shreds by the demon gang.
One of the most horrifying scenes of the episode(s), imo. Both the fact itself and that Buffy sees it, and the look exchanged between her and her alter ego.
I'm wondering if Dawn can sense Buffy's whereabouts.
Possible. I don't think there is a case in the show where Dawn doesn't find Buffy if she really wants to.
The only reason Buffy doesn't kill herself in the end of Bargaining is Dawn. Buffy can feel that Dawn needs her; she has always protected Dawn, so her protective instincts take over again. I wouldn't say that Buffy loves Dawn actively in The Bargaining. I don't think that she is able to feel anything apart from confusion and despair at this point.
Yes. She's reacting to Dawn purely by instinct, because their connection is far deeper than conscious thought, but day to day interactions are another thing entirely.
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Date: 2006-02-01 11:16 pm (UTC)So far I get the impression that she cares for Dawn, but just can't deal with her any longer. Dawn expects Buffy to love her and be like she was and Buffy just can't give her the love she needs any more. So she feels a lot of pressure when around Dawn which results in her pushing her away and then feeling guilty about it - which just makes her withdraw even further.