Buffy - Season 5 impressions (episode 17)
Jan. 14th, 2006 03:23 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
thalia_seawoodForever
For a summary click here.
- The atmosphere of this episode really captures how the aftermath of a death feels. Everybody is walking around in a haze, mostly functioning on autopilot. People enquire if you are okay and there are many reassurances that yes, you're fine. In this episode, Buffy and occasionally Dawn tell their friends repeatedly that they are fine, okay or all right. Which is, of course, very far removed from the truth.
Forever also deals with all the things that need to be done when someone has died: Select a coffin, decide which flowers there should be, inform the relatives or friends, write an announcement, ... Really you just want to be left alone, but it's not a choice. And as Buffy says later on the things that need to be done keep you going and prevent you from falling down a black hole.
It's brilliant how the suffocating atmosphere of The Body and Forever is taken up again in the beginning of season 6. This fits perfectly. After all, in both instances we deal with the aftermath of death.
- It's painful to see that Buffy's father still hasn't responded to her calls. It must make her feel very bad to think that she has to carry so much of the burden by herself when her father wasn't confronted with Joyce's death yet and might not even care that much about it by now.
- Also felt sorry for Spike in this episode. I'm convinced he genuinely liked Joyce.
I can understand Xander's reaction, but when he discovers that he's wrong about Spike's motivations it would have been nice of him to apologize. But then we're not in the realm of happy fanfiction and Xander not apologizing - at least not any time soon and never with words - is way more realistic.
Spike: Care? Joyce was the only one of the lot of you that I could stand.
Xander: And she's the only one with a daughter you wanted to shag. I'm touched.
Spike: I liked the lady. Understand, monkey boy? She was decent. (Xander and Willow exchange a look) She didn't put on airs. She always had a nice cuppa for me.
Willow looks sympathetic.
Spike: And she never treated me like a freak.
Xander: Her mistake.
Spike: (scoffs) Think what you want.
He throws the flowers to the ground and stomps off.
Xander: Un ... believable.
Willow looks at Xander, Bends to pick up the flowers.
Xander: The guy thinks he can put on a big show and con Buffy into being his sex monkey.
Willow: (looking at flowers) Xander... (he looks at her) He didn't leave a card.
- The funeral scene itself is another extremely well shot scene. It's very clear that Buffy is still in shock.
Angel shows up and I like it that they just hold hands without talking.
I've seen episode 16 and 17 on Angel and my impression is that this crossover is very clumsily performed. On Angel, we don't get any hints that Buffy's mother has died and that Angel went to Sunnydale to visit Buffy. During episode 17, Willow and Cordy talk to one another on the phone and once again there's no mention of Joyce's death. Odd. - Did I miss something?
- Willow and Tara don't do a very good job of talking to Dawn. Even Tara's remark You make a place for her in your heart. It's sort of like she becomes a part of you. Does that make sense? sounds rather tacky.
I don't know. In my experience, it's not a big help when someone tells you that you will feel better soon; it just sounds like a big lie. Why is it so hard to be honest with people who are grieving? If you grieve, you aren't fine and you won't be for a very long time. But nevertheless, there are some things you can do to cope with your grief: Talk about what happened or write stuff down or smash things or rant at fate. What doesn't help is people tip toeing around you, assuring you that you will be peachy.
- Dawn wants to bring Joyce back and wants Willow's and Tara's help for it.
Most interesting that Tara is against helping her because it's against nature whereas Willow is opposed because it's dangerous and has never worked before. Willow tries to agree to Tara's moral view, but it's obvious that she doesn't get Tara's reasons.
Willow is a fascinating character. She cares deeply for others and can be easily hurt. However, she is attracted to danger. She always wants to know more, never mind the risk. This is something we have seen repeatedly, e.g. when she wants to keep robot Ted to closely examine him or when she starts reading Wilkins' book instead of fleeing from the office building immediately.
Willow assisting Dawn in finding a book that contains information on how to bring back people from the dead shocked me.
- Angel: Look, it's okay. I know you don't feel like it now, but you are strong, Buffy. You're gonna figure this out. And you have people to help you. You don't have to do this alone.
The phrase "it's okay" is definitely overused on this episode. Nope, Angel, it isn't.
I'm not too fond of the talk between Angel and Buffy. I just don't get them: If they love each other, they should stay together. Angel should stay in Sunnydale and help her above and beyond giving her a late night pep talk. Yes, he's afraid of losing his soul, but quite frankly I don't think Angel would ever be carefree enough around Buffy now to lose his soul.
I think for me it would make things worse if my ex-boyfriend showed up, gave me some comfort - and then left again after a couple of hours. Instead of losing one person, I would feel like I was losing two.
- Ben is willing to use violence to protect the Key. I was surprised, until I remembered that he's not that innocent. After all, he has also helped getting rid of the insane people Glory left behind.
Unfortunately, Ben doesn't really kill Jinx so Glory gets to know that the Key is in human form.
- Love the interaction between Dawn and Spike in this episode. I really liked this scene, because it's one of the few times that Spike doesn't put on his flirty or witty facade, but is behaving in a serious way. Helping Dawn bringing back her mother is wrong, but from Spike I don't expect an understanding of the moral implications. He isn't a thinker, he's a doer. Also being undead himself, he's coming at this from a different perspective. (From Willow I expect a bit more though.)
Spike: I hope it's just dirt you're after.
Dawn turns in surprise.
Spike: If the spell calls for anything more than that, you're into zombie territory, and that's bad news.
Dawn: (shakes her head anxiously) Spike, I-I wasn't...
Spike: I know good and well what you're up to. That book you've got is infamous.
Dawn: Please ... don't tell Buffy. I just ... I have to get her back. (anguished) I have to.
Spike: I'm not gonna tell, little bit.
Dawn looks surprised.
Spike: I'm gonna help.
- Another great moment:
Dawn: (frowns, stops walking) Spike, I'm not stupid. You're, like, stalking my sister. (Spike stops, turns to look at her) You'd do anything to get in good with her.
Spike: (takes a few steps closer; firmly) Buffy never hears about this, okay? (looks around) Found out what I was doing, she'd drive a redwood through my chest.
Dawn: Then, if you don't want credit, why are you helping me?
Spike: (looking at the ground, quietly) I just don't like to see Summers women take it so hard on the chin, is all. (looks up, speaks angrily) And I'm dead serious. You breathe a word of this to Buffy, I'll see to it that *you* end up in the ground. Got it?
Dawn: Yeah. Got it.
- The Doc:
Great performance!
The Doc looks so friendly and I wanted to trust him. I wasn't alarmed by the fact he has a tail, because we have seen helpful demons on Angel. When he takes Dawn's hand in the end though, looks at her and gets suddenly *very* spooky, I scribbled in my notebook "Don't trust this guy! Hope he can't sense she's the Key." Despite that I still wanted to trust him. :-)
- Dawn and Spike get the egg of the Ghora demon.
Spike risks a lot to help Dawn. I'm impressed.
I was also surprised that he doesn't give Dawn a long speech for dropping the first egg or running back to get a second one. He's someone who can sympathize with acting on impulve to achieve something you desperately want.
- Tara notices her book "History of Witchcraft" is gone. She doesn't noticed, however, that Willow obviously knows how Dawn found the book in the first place. I like Tara a lot, but here I wanted to shake her. She's almost scarily naive in this scene.
- Love the final scene between Dawn and Buffy.
Dawn: I don't have anybody.
Buffy: What?! Of course you do. You have me!
Dawn: No, I don't. You won't even look at me. It's so obvious you don't want me around.
Buffy: That's not true.
Dawn: (harshly) Yes it is. Mom ... died, and it's like you don't even care.
Buffy: (shocked, with tears in her eyes) Of course I care. How can you even think that?
Dawn: How can I not? You haven't even cried. You've just been running around like it's been some big chore or something. Cleaning up after Mom's mess.
Buffy slaps Dawn across the face. Dawn yelps and puts her hand to her cheek. Buffy puts her hand over her mouth in horror.
Buffy: (tearful) Dawn ... I've been ... working. I've been busy, because I have to-
Dawn: (tearful) No! You've been avoiding me.
Buffy: I'm not! ... I have to do these things, 'cause ... (crying) 'cause when I stop, then she's really gone.
Dawn frowns in confusion.
Buffy: And I'm trying. Dawn, I am, I am really trying to take care of things, but I don't even know what I'm doing. Mom always knew.
Dawn: Nobody's asking you to be Mom.
Buffy: Well, who's gonna be if I'm not? Huh, Dawn? Have you even thought about that? Who's gonna make things better? (crying harder) Who's gonna take care of us?
- All the while, Buffy has been so mature, but in the end it's Dawn who makes the right decision. Buffy is so eager to have her mother back that she would have opened the door and welcomed her back, though I'm sure she would not have liked what she would have found behind the door.
Joyce coming back from her grave and Dawn stopping the spell just before Buffy can open the door, reminded me of the ending of the short story "The Monkey's Paw" by W.W. Jacobs that can be found here. (Possession of the monkey' paw gives you three wishes, but be careful what you wish for. Since the first wish goes wrong, the second wish is for the son to return from the grave, but you know he will be *very* different when he returns. While his mother tries to open the door to let her resurrected son into the house, her husband makes the last wish - for his son to be dead again.)
For a summary click here.
- The atmosphere of this episode really captures how the aftermath of a death feels. Everybody is walking around in a haze, mostly functioning on autopilot. People enquire if you are okay and there are many reassurances that yes, you're fine. In this episode, Buffy and occasionally Dawn tell their friends repeatedly that they are fine, okay or all right. Which is, of course, very far removed from the truth.
Forever also deals with all the things that need to be done when someone has died: Select a coffin, decide which flowers there should be, inform the relatives or friends, write an announcement, ... Really you just want to be left alone, but it's not a choice. And as Buffy says later on the things that need to be done keep you going and prevent you from falling down a black hole.
It's brilliant how the suffocating atmosphere of The Body and Forever is taken up again in the beginning of season 6. This fits perfectly. After all, in both instances we deal with the aftermath of death.
- It's painful to see that Buffy's father still hasn't responded to her calls. It must make her feel very bad to think that she has to carry so much of the burden by herself when her father wasn't confronted with Joyce's death yet and might not even care that much about it by now.
- Also felt sorry for Spike in this episode. I'm convinced he genuinely liked Joyce.
I can understand Xander's reaction, but when he discovers that he's wrong about Spike's motivations it would have been nice of him to apologize. But then we're not in the realm of happy fanfiction and Xander not apologizing - at least not any time soon and never with words - is way more realistic.
Spike: Care? Joyce was the only one of the lot of you that I could stand.
Xander: And she's the only one with a daughter you wanted to shag. I'm touched.
Spike: I liked the lady. Understand, monkey boy? She was decent. (Xander and Willow exchange a look) She didn't put on airs. She always had a nice cuppa for me.
Willow looks sympathetic.
Spike: And she never treated me like a freak.
Xander: Her mistake.
Spike: (scoffs) Think what you want.
He throws the flowers to the ground and stomps off.
Xander: Un ... believable.
Willow looks at Xander, Bends to pick up the flowers.
Xander: The guy thinks he can put on a big show and con Buffy into being his sex monkey.
Willow: (looking at flowers) Xander... (he looks at her) He didn't leave a card.
- The funeral scene itself is another extremely well shot scene. It's very clear that Buffy is still in shock.
Angel shows up and I like it that they just hold hands without talking.
I've seen episode 16 and 17 on Angel and my impression is that this crossover is very clumsily performed. On Angel, we don't get any hints that Buffy's mother has died and that Angel went to Sunnydale to visit Buffy. During episode 17, Willow and Cordy talk to one another on the phone and once again there's no mention of Joyce's death. Odd. - Did I miss something?
- Willow and Tara don't do a very good job of talking to Dawn. Even Tara's remark You make a place for her in your heart. It's sort of like she becomes a part of you. Does that make sense? sounds rather tacky.
I don't know. In my experience, it's not a big help when someone tells you that you will feel better soon; it just sounds like a big lie. Why is it so hard to be honest with people who are grieving? If you grieve, you aren't fine and you won't be for a very long time. But nevertheless, there are some things you can do to cope with your grief: Talk about what happened or write stuff down or smash things or rant at fate. What doesn't help is people tip toeing around you, assuring you that you will be peachy.
- Dawn wants to bring Joyce back and wants Willow's and Tara's help for it.
Most interesting that Tara is against helping her because it's against nature whereas Willow is opposed because it's dangerous and has never worked before. Willow tries to agree to Tara's moral view, but it's obvious that she doesn't get Tara's reasons.
Willow is a fascinating character. She cares deeply for others and can be easily hurt. However, she is attracted to danger. She always wants to know more, never mind the risk. This is something we have seen repeatedly, e.g. when she wants to keep robot Ted to closely examine him or when she starts reading Wilkins' book instead of fleeing from the office building immediately.
Willow assisting Dawn in finding a book that contains information on how to bring back people from the dead shocked me.
- Angel: Look, it's okay. I know you don't feel like it now, but you are strong, Buffy. You're gonna figure this out. And you have people to help you. You don't have to do this alone.
The phrase "it's okay" is definitely overused on this episode. Nope, Angel, it isn't.
I'm not too fond of the talk between Angel and Buffy. I just don't get them: If they love each other, they should stay together. Angel should stay in Sunnydale and help her above and beyond giving her a late night pep talk. Yes, he's afraid of losing his soul, but quite frankly I don't think Angel would ever be carefree enough around Buffy now to lose his soul.
I think for me it would make things worse if my ex-boyfriend showed up, gave me some comfort - and then left again after a couple of hours. Instead of losing one person, I would feel like I was losing two.
- Ben is willing to use violence to protect the Key. I was surprised, until I remembered that he's not that innocent. After all, he has also helped getting rid of the insane people Glory left behind.
Unfortunately, Ben doesn't really kill Jinx so Glory gets to know that the Key is in human form.
- Love the interaction between Dawn and Spike in this episode. I really liked this scene, because it's one of the few times that Spike doesn't put on his flirty or witty facade, but is behaving in a serious way. Helping Dawn bringing back her mother is wrong, but from Spike I don't expect an understanding of the moral implications. He isn't a thinker, he's a doer. Also being undead himself, he's coming at this from a different perspective. (From Willow I expect a bit more though.)
Spike: I hope it's just dirt you're after.
Dawn turns in surprise.
Spike: If the spell calls for anything more than that, you're into zombie territory, and that's bad news.
Dawn: (shakes her head anxiously) Spike, I-I wasn't...
Spike: I know good and well what you're up to. That book you've got is infamous.
Dawn: Please ... don't tell Buffy. I just ... I have to get her back. (anguished) I have to.
Spike: I'm not gonna tell, little bit.
Dawn looks surprised.
Spike: I'm gonna help.
- Another great moment:
Dawn: (frowns, stops walking) Spike, I'm not stupid. You're, like, stalking my sister. (Spike stops, turns to look at her) You'd do anything to get in good with her.
Spike: (takes a few steps closer; firmly) Buffy never hears about this, okay? (looks around) Found out what I was doing, she'd drive a redwood through my chest.
Dawn: Then, if you don't want credit, why are you helping me?
Spike: (looking at the ground, quietly) I just don't like to see Summers women take it so hard on the chin, is all. (looks up, speaks angrily) And I'm dead serious. You breathe a word of this to Buffy, I'll see to it that *you* end up in the ground. Got it?
Dawn: Yeah. Got it.
- The Doc:
Great performance!
The Doc looks so friendly and I wanted to trust him. I wasn't alarmed by the fact he has a tail, because we have seen helpful demons on Angel. When he takes Dawn's hand in the end though, looks at her and gets suddenly *very* spooky, I scribbled in my notebook "Don't trust this guy! Hope he can't sense she's the Key." Despite that I still wanted to trust him. :-)
- Dawn and Spike get the egg of the Ghora demon.
Spike risks a lot to help Dawn. I'm impressed.
I was also surprised that he doesn't give Dawn a long speech for dropping the first egg or running back to get a second one. He's someone who can sympathize with acting on impulve to achieve something you desperately want.
- Tara notices her book "History of Witchcraft" is gone. She doesn't noticed, however, that Willow obviously knows how Dawn found the book in the first place. I like Tara a lot, but here I wanted to shake her. She's almost scarily naive in this scene.
- Love the final scene between Dawn and Buffy.
Dawn: I don't have anybody.
Buffy: What?! Of course you do. You have me!
Dawn: No, I don't. You won't even look at me. It's so obvious you don't want me around.
Buffy: That's not true.
Dawn: (harshly) Yes it is. Mom ... died, and it's like you don't even care.
Buffy: (shocked, with tears in her eyes) Of course I care. How can you even think that?
Dawn: How can I not? You haven't even cried. You've just been running around like it's been some big chore or something. Cleaning up after Mom's mess.
Buffy slaps Dawn across the face. Dawn yelps and puts her hand to her cheek. Buffy puts her hand over her mouth in horror.
Buffy: (tearful) Dawn ... I've been ... working. I've been busy, because I have to-
Dawn: (tearful) No! You've been avoiding me.
Buffy: I'm not! ... I have to do these things, 'cause ... (crying) 'cause when I stop, then she's really gone.
Dawn frowns in confusion.
Buffy: And I'm trying. Dawn, I am, I am really trying to take care of things, but I don't even know what I'm doing. Mom always knew.
Dawn: Nobody's asking you to be Mom.
Buffy: Well, who's gonna be if I'm not? Huh, Dawn? Have you even thought about that? Who's gonna make things better? (crying harder) Who's gonna take care of us?
- All the while, Buffy has been so mature, but in the end it's Dawn who makes the right decision. Buffy is so eager to have her mother back that she would have opened the door and welcomed her back, though I'm sure she would not have liked what she would have found behind the door.
Joyce coming back from her grave and Dawn stopping the spell just before Buffy can open the door, reminded me of the ending of the short story "The Monkey's Paw" by W.W. Jacobs that can be found here. (Possession of the monkey' paw gives you three wishes, but be careful what you wish for. Since the first wish goes wrong, the second wish is for the son to return from the grave, but you know he will be *very* different when he returns. While his mother tries to open the door to let her resurrected son into the house, her husband makes the last wish - for his son to be dead again.)
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no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 04:07 pm (UTC)But then we're not in the realm of happy fanfiction and Xander not apologizing - at least not any time soon and never with words - is way more realistic.
Yes. And btw, this is one of the many reasons wy Spike/Xander doesn't work for me as a pairing.
Angel appearing silently and the hand holding: yes, loved that, too. I'm not a 'shipper, but that is one of my favourite moments between Buffy and Angel nonetheless.
As to this not being referred to on AtS: but really, why would it? Yes, Cordelia knew Joyce (and Wesley presumably knew at least who she was), but not as more than a casual aquaintance. And her death - or Buffy's reaction to same - does not affect any of them.
If you want a direct link, however,
Angel not staying in Sunnydale to help Buffy further: actually, that works for me exactly because of the timeline. He has things to make up with his friends in Los Angeles, and if he left again just after they accepted him back - bad move.
Willow assisting Dawn in finding a book that contains information on how to bring back people from the dead shocked me.
Foreshadowing, of course. But also: Willow going for the magical fixit again, which has been a tendency after since season 3 and her attempt to find a "de-lusting" spell.
The final scene betwen Buffy and Dawn is one of my favourite scenes for the two of them ever. Just breaks my heart each time.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 05:58 pm (UTC)Yes, that's my feelings.. I think that Angel's white steed routine (no matter what's going on with ATS) is intended by the writers to show that their relationship is idealized by both of them.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 07:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 09:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-15 08:51 am (UTC)"I signalled her with my eyes" will never stop being funny, she says cryptically.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-15 04:21 pm (UTC)I've seen Angel and Spike on the airplane and their wonderful ride on the moped. ("Hop on little, mama.") Also watched the flashback scenes that had me in stitches.
There's no doubt that I will love this episode if the rest of it is anything like it.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-15 04:50 pm (UTC)Also,
The Angel and Spike scenes have me on the floor each time, both the flashbacks and the present day action.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-15 10:03 pm (UTC)Oh, the flashbacks when they both dangle from the ceiling or when can't believe Darla and Dru had a good time with the Immortal. Priceless! Have to laugh just thinking about the scenes.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 07:10 pm (UTC)Oh, I don't think they should have made a big deal out of it, but I didn't even get the impression that Angel was gone at all. I think I would have liked to see him get a phonecall from Sunnydale and then a brief take of his reaction. Though, maybe what really bugs me is that Angel behaves very differently on Buffy and on Angel and I can't reconcile the two Angels easily.
and if he left again just after they accepted him back - bad move.
Good point.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 08:03 pm (UTC)Though, maybe what really bugs me is that Angel behaves very differently on Buffy and on Angel and I can't reconcile the two Angels easily.
Hm, I wouldn't say he behaves so differently - he's offering support for Buffy in a terrible time for her, and that's something he does post-Epiphany on AtS for friends in need, too, again - but that on BTVS, we see him from Buffy's perspective, and on AtS from his own pov, and those are indeed different. He's the guy coming from the shadows and going there again in Forever which he was for Buffy back in the day; as opposed to their arguments re: his stalking in Pangs or Faith there is no reason on this particular occasion to be different for him, and Angel is always good in slipping in roles, for a while. He is, on that particular occasion, who Buffy needs him to be. That's how I interpret it.
Ironically, I had far more difficulties with his appearance in Pangs - when his and Buffy's relationship was very recent than you, whereas I had zero problems with his appearance in Forever, which I loved. It also made sense to me that he would show up at all - Buffy losing her mother is a real terrible emergency, unlike the goings on in Pangs, and I liked that the show didn't let him provide a magic resolution to what Buffy was going through - just a brief respite. Of all their post-season 3 encounters, that's the one I like best.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 08:53 pm (UTC)Yes. And btw, this is one of the many reasons wy Spike/Xander doesn't work for me as a pairing.
The popularity of Spander is possibly the number one thing in BtVS fandom that baffles the hell out of me. (And I should say some of my best friends are hardcore S/X shippers) On some level I see the appeal (snarky cool guy and snarky geek guy get it on) but i can't see it in the canon. I was discussing this recently with
I like this episode overall, though I could take or leave the Angel scene. It's Dawn's interactions with Buffy and with Spike that stay with me.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 09:18 pm (UTC)Since this was the first pairing I stumbled over I checked out some stories. Even read two good ones, but have no urge to revisit them. What baffles me, is that the huge majority of Spander fics doesn't take their misunderstandings in canon into account! From what I've seen most play in season 4 which I find rather boring. Later seasons when their relationship obviously gets problematic are mostly ignored. Now if I wrote this pairing, I would try to focus exactly on their unhappy encounters in canon and develop my story coming from there.
That said: I have no craving for Spander slash, but will try to find some stories about their relationship. The "All about Spike" website has some Xander & Spike stories that sound promising.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 09:23 pm (UTC)now how much of it will be stuff you like, I don't know.
i'm still meaning to dig up post-"thin dead line" stuff for you.
i just don't do a good job of keeping track of stuff I've read. I'm pretty sure
no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 09:33 pm (UTC)So far: One good story, but not a keeper. It seem that hardly anyone tackles the difficulties in canon realistically. Even the friendship story I just read was unrealistic. :-(
I'll just stay with Angel/Wesley, Angel/Spike or Wesley/Gunn. Which is not a hardship. :-)
no subject
Date: 2006-01-14 10:42 pm (UTC)Resting Comfortably.
The author,
no subject
Date: 2006-01-15 10:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-15 02:09 am (UTC)If they love each other, they should stay together. Angel should stay in Sunnydale and help her above and beyond giving her a late night pep talk.
And that's one of the differences between the relationships Buffy has with Spike and Angel, isn't it. Angel can't stay and Spike keeps coming back.
oh, and if your interested, In the Ground by Rabbit and Yours, Eternally by SeraC are good - but creepy - alternative ending fics where Dawn did not tear the photo.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-15 04:35 pm (UTC)